the rise of AI and ml based assistance has had a major impact across a lot of sectors of what people create content for but one of the biggest areas has been around visual design visual art and content creation that is purely in the realm of pixels looking really nice in this interview I talked to Pascal de Silva a close online friend who I've known for over 20 years one of the most talented hard-working and probably the best animating designer that I've ever run across and it's going to be pretty exciting to get his take on how all the changes we're seeing thanks to the rise of artificial intelligence will change your life my life and lifestyle others it's gonna be fun let's get started alright Pascal great to meet you again

after having known you for almost 20 years now online online a few times offline as well dude probably two decades is is is is nuts

yeah it's been a it's been a fun ride

but you know glad to catch up with you again and hopefully share a lot of the fun stuff that makes you an interesting person both the designer and an online individual so glad great to have you on board and you know so tell me a little bit more about yourself you know what do you do where are you and what what makes you tick

oh man I feel like over the last 20 years of knowing you has been such a a roller Caster of um personal creative professional experiences but um where I am right now is in such a like almost manically exciting state that I think might be shared by quite a number of peers in our in our industry and you know for for me right now I'd say like keywords that are exciting artificial intelligence real-time graphics uh characters animation and then just kind of like everything that touches that I've just been going through such a um almost like personal Renaissance moment of being able to move between so many different disciplines and um you know we I think we we briefly touched on this when we we had a we had

a little catch up when I was in Australia last month or the month before um but I've been like chasing a a a White Rabbit for pretty much my entire hobbyist and professional career which was um you know it's like the the last infinity stone which is engineering I've always found that to be like the most difficult of all the available uh disciplines a lot of other things have come easy like learning animation and graphics and illustration um and maybe even business stuff and math and and math and all the other subjects that sit around it or or could could plug in um I would I'd be able to get through that but I since as long as I can remember even like coming onto your Forum back in the

day and like wanting to learn to engineer wanting to learn action script and over the years starting and stopping on so many different programming languages and so many different environments and configurations with Engineers um starting up the ramp and then like getting burnt out and then giving up almost or just like throwing in the towel and being like bro I can't engineer I'm really good at all this other stuff I should just thank my lucky stars uh and I will uh you know just compromise in a way hire Engineers to do this work that I just wish I could zero to one but the big breakthrough that happened when I had a lot of time to myself in Australia was discovering the best possible teacher

for engineering for me was artificial intelligence and I've been like surfing this wave certainly long before it hit the more mainstream news cycle almost like a feeling like a crazy person feeling so much value in using um uh like codex and and GitHub co-pilot just having another brain underneath underneath my fingers has allowed me to become fluent enough at least inside one environment which is uh Unity with C sharp to build things like all the way through end to end and that is something I've wanted to be able to do forever and it like it came together from pretty much close to if you're to measure close to zero uh like C sharp fluency to being able to build a full stack thing in two and a half or three weeks

it's like you know in The Matrix where uh Neo gets the chord plugged into the back of his head and he's like oh I know Kung Fu I feel like I finally had that with with engineering where by no measure by no means would I consider myself to be a good engineer but definitely good enough to work with myself now and just do the thing all the way through and I gotta say man like that feeling of being able to do every part of the thing is just maybe one of the most satisfying uh feelings I feel like I could die right now and I'd be I'd be I'd I'd be happy like everything moving on from here is like bonus round it's just it's it's it's

been such a uh utopian mental space to be in I guess

yeah I know and I definitely want to dive deeper into with your work on the AIML space but before you even get there you know do you consider yourself more of a designer or an engineer it seems like designer based on what you mentioned but I just want to get your take on it

dude this has been such a funny one too I was explaining to my mom and dad being back home in uh in Australia this the feeling of the Breakthrough I was happening and you know how like there's the whole like the whole bit of like coming out to your like Mom and Dad like on your own like sexuality or something that's like that's like a classic story people will go home and they'll be like hey I'm this way now and they got to accept it I was like Mom I got something to tell you and it's not to do with that it's but it would it's like that conversation but like a parallel version of that conversation like I've always identified as just an artist

it was like struggled with the engineering piece I just like want you to understand how big a deal this is for me and I've like I I was finally able to like get into harmony or comfort with like I am cool calling myself an engineer even if I'm not a great engineer or like fully there and if I can call myself an engineer where is the line between being an artist and an engineer is that a thing anymore because I I at this point don't know where that line is anymore like code finally feels like picking up a like a pen or a pencil or a brush or a guitar where I can noodle with it and jam um in a pretty like fluid way and so I think for maybe

how old am I I'm almost 34. um I don't know 25 years or more would have used to say I'm an artist or committed to just being an artist um and you used to feel there was more of a dichotomy of artist engineer designer engineer but in discovering this new part it it um like it it feels like a real part of me that was like waiting to be unlocked and so I don't know what the the word is anymore it's it's like yeah it's getting weird it's weird like what would you call yourself

I call myself a creator

yeah I mean it's like yeah Creator is probably the word it's like like not to toot our own horns but I guess there's like you know there was there was there it was almost like Greek or Italian or like like Renaissance Vibe back in the day where like there were a bunch of these homies they're like I'm a mathematician I draw I paid I do this I do that I Engineer the things I create and those people just came along like once in a in a blue moon um but I think we're about to enter an era of more of those types of people emerging where it becomes pretty pretty normal and um some of us dorks just happen to like get there a little bit a little bit earlier

but I just sense that um those labels or definitions are just gonna start to blur some more um

no I completely agree with you you know especially when you look at Just In Our Lifetime right you know nothing like the time you and I have known each other since then it's like you know back then it was a case where if you're a designer you had very specific tools very siled in what they did and if you're a developer and your output was going to be something that worked in the browser worked on your desktops maybe installed or something like that very different tools very different way of approaching some of these problems and I think when we connected on flash you know the tool that allows you to do both visual design and programmatic interaction that was one of the first apps at least to me

that blurred the lines between what is very strictly something that falls in the bucket of a designer and what is in it falls in the bucket of a developer and the tool was kind of the thing that kind of bridged both those worlds together but I think as you're alluding to from your introduction the whole world of AI and ml it's kind of bridging more of those gaps where it's gonna be the tools it's what you're actually interested in and focused on if you care about building great apps in your developer great all the design side of things you can now rely and delegate to some computer system or you can if you see yourself as a designer you care about the visuals the environment the

tone the feeling of what you're building you can delegate all the technical things to some AI ml based assistance and be almost as successful as you would have been if you spent Years Learning something or hiring someone to fill that role in for you

yeah I think that's spot on man like we there was like a generation of building software or working inside the software scene where I think you had to like really commit to like a side you're like I'm just going full send on being a designer and owning my craft because it requires so much work to like the grunt work is is a lot and it's the same thing on engineering you gotta like absorb a lot of domain knowledge and then that leaves you very little time to like put those Cycles in on on on design but now we've got these like super high leverage tools that are just emerging especially with the AI that now you can start to like straddle the lines or or flip between those those

domains a lot more fluidly and work over the problems more uh holistically which is just so freaking exciting it's like I think the perspective the the overall population working in in software is going to get from this is going to be it's gonna be nuts because you'll you'll have people that are less uh one note or like almost like pledging allegiance to a single party if you're like you know a full-sun engineer the the classic story we have is like okay it's it's rare that like um hardcore engineers and and this is like a bit of a catch-all rule but like hardcore Engineers often don't have the best like design sensibility and then super like aesthetic uh artistic designers often have like very like little understanding of how

the underlying systems work when you get closer to the metal so they're like operating in this like out of touch with the other end of reality situation um but yeah now there's just like such a um amazing plane opening up right now um

yes no very much though in many ways it's almost a case where like there are things you care about and the things you don't care about it used to be that in order to get something out the door you need to spend time doing things you cared about and also doing things you didn't care about and struggled through that and you know get something out what we're seeing now is that we've gotten to this point where it's almost a luxury where you can use and rely on systems with his tools whether it's AI or not even AI based where you can spend more time doing anything that you're uniquely qualified for think that you're very good at and then delegate all the things you don't really care about something

else and still be able to provide a high quality output which in the past would have been something looks really good but functions really poorly or something looks horrible but functions really well but you can kind of get the best of both worlds all in many ways as a single individual you know you don't need a team of people you need to crowdsource you need to rely on a community to make this work you have a lot more power at your fingertips I think that is going to open a lot more doors for people when we look at you know two three five years on the road on how people started using these things to create even better things

yeah I think the individuals are now getting access to a conduit that can transform them into like 10x versions of of themselves and I mean I I've already been like you know running a handful of experiments by by you know having my hands in these these tools and experience that firsthand you know like uh visual tools for doing concept art that I you know in the past where I've hired a concept artist to do it probably not because like it's it's in this weird gray like area where it's so small that it doesn't make sense for me to like hire someone and and do all the contract work and comms work with them but like enough work that doing it myself is just a bit frustrating

so I just like wouldn't do it like there's a lot of like projects that can just start because you just have so much more to go with or you get like a big speed boost from the beginning like um on the visual concept art side on the research side for um engineering like no longer do you have to trawl through uh stack Overflow or um or Google and craft the perfect search term I mean with I mean I've been pushing the limits of of chat GPT as like my engineering assistant and before I sit down to go build a feature on a thing I will do my research with it I'll just ask it the like the questions I know are going to be Harry like is this thing

possible how would I hook this thing up to that like is this like what does this concept mean and to just like have it spit all the answers out and I can just skim the thing I'm like oh cool I didn't have to like smack my head on a keyboard and torture myself for like two or three hours to get those initial answers I'm like at a point where it's almost like I had an assistant just drop the preliminary research on my desk and I can just go off to the races it's it's it's unbelievable

how do you find the accuracy of it because we see a lot of things online where people are finding examples where you ask it a very good question it gives it what looks like a very good response but the accuracy of it is questionable at best yeah how do you work through that

I think it depends on the the context these tools are being used for um like I tend to not really like throw it total like crap shoots it'd be like examples would be like I was working on a a thing in unity today um Unity is not great at at handling like system audio at least recording I'm working on like a motion control system for recording animation out of like real-time puppets but I also need to record microphone audio and um I was able to get a solution out of this thing pretty quickly after just spending the time to prompt the thing correctly I think there's an art to horse Whispering the thing if you ask it too vague a question I think the likelihood of just getting

inaccuracies is pretty high but if you're leading it down a path of like um you know um I guess if you set it up for success I think the the chances of being accurate are pretty hot so you know I was asking like oh go for it

which is exactly which is almost the same as like talking to a human being you know the quality of the question you asked that person is the quality of the answer you'll get back independent of whether they know the topic really deeply or not so from that point of view I think it's almost par for the course between humans and AIS

yeah I think that's right there's like a almost emotional and communication intelligence one has to have to talk to the AIS that you need when you're working with people anyway except now we've got this like incredible brain this like being that will work for you tirelessly and I think there's um a new skill to develop which is it really is around this this horse Whispering or knowing how to like speak the the magic words in a way and it's not rocket surgery here it's like using the tools we've had for thousands of years words and and and language and um understanding like specificity and and context and and reasoning and um I think if you can master that in in this age that we're we're entering

right now it's probably been one of the most valuable skills someone could have like how can you yeah communicate with this new yeah super intelligence

no very much so you know it's almost like when touchscreen devices first came out you know like people were using it and now we're all using it by default it's almost going to be the same case where you're going to be doing there will be more layers of abstraction built on top of conversational AI but I think the world where we're going to have to figure out on our own or ask someone for help and wait for someone to respond to us I think those days may be limited as we look across but one thing I'm curious about though right is that you know you're in my view one of the best animators you know I've ever seen and have you know whose work I've

encountered what we don't have with AIML today at least as far as I can tell is having a way for me to create really good animations using you know textual prompts so I'm curious when do you think it's going to happen

it's a good question I mean I'm already starting to try to break ground with my um humble resources and intelligence and I don't think we're that far off man like I was spending some time in in LA on my my way back from Australia in well earlier this month and hanging out with my good friend Eric Pringle who likes to describe himself as a lazy animator um he is he's fantastic he uh works on the show Teen Titans Go at Warner Brothers uh as I believe like the animation director they're like 10 seasons in it it's a super efficiently made show and believe it or not um produced in Flash or anime it's one of the few remaining shows that are popular in the world that is that is uh

made with it before that he was on this incredible show called Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends um I don't know if you've ever seen that show but it was like super Innovative for its time I mean it still holds up so freaking well and it it it it it it leveraged a more puppet Style uh like animation process and something that's part of like Eric's philosophy and it's definitely worth taking a look at some of his um animation ranks you'll post on on Twitter he'll do the like rig like run-throughs or we'll call them poke arounds he tries to draw as little as possible and he told me when he he got his way into the animation scene um back in the day he wasn't like a master draftsman or

anything in fact like drawing was like not one of his strongest things he he just worked out how to be really efficient with the tools and to be able to like communicate images um with with systems that he would set up and so you know we we were talking through like what happens post um you know flash kick in the bucket or animate kick in the bucket um where are people trying to develop these more I guess I say this phrase a a fair amount lately but like high high leverage um yeah who is doing some of this like high Leverage production technique type work and a lot of the shows that are produced today are still done the old way like for the most part they're like hand

drawn and people are like generating things close to frame by frame or using even classical like tweening um but we look at the video game world like inside unity and Unreal Engine and and looking at real time production and um there's I think like such a a ripe uh space for simulation work to happen and as I've spent more time in the these tools and realized like how much horsepower is behind them um it just feels like these tools are asking to be used for um you know honestly I I think all the Lego blocks are are there and it's it's it's a I wouldn't say exactly trivial but like the right group of people in resources put behind a thing could definitely start making

um tools where you could just write a sentence or two into a an engine and it would spit something out and one thing we've been interested in trying is we're looking at like okay what are some of the bars of of acceptable animation or acceptable animation that we see today and a classic one that people like to to measure against is South Park right it's famously crude but the writing underneath uh is is great and not only is the rating underneath it great something that I think makes South Park hit is the rate that it comes out because it comes out so fast and because they're producing these episodes in under a week they're super like plugged into the Zeitgeist of like meme culture like

what's going on in the news I think that's like a superpower South Park has um and so how can you speed South Park up how can you possibly speed South Park up I mean it was a big deal for them to take uh the cutout animation they were doing in the first couple years of the show and move it over to Maya I don't know if you know that they use like 3D software to make uh South Park um but they use like a you know Maya's a pretty heavy duty like uh package that is used in every like major 3D Studio and it was nuts for them to like build all these Rigs and Implement them in Maya um but the characters are so modular and

they're made of such simple parts and the animations are crude and um no one's really focusing on the aesthetic as an audience member so we were thinking we're like man how hard would it actually be to um build like a South Park scene generator even if like the stuff that came out was crunchy could you create a thing where you could say like um Butters and Kenny fight over shrimp and just see what comes out could you synthesize the voices could you put the puppets into a scene could you have the camera like flip between the characters as dialogue is being delivered could you hallucinate a background based off a bunch of training data and could you then have a I don't know minute or two

scene that is borderline watchable even if it wasn't excellent It's a starting point like imagine if you as a director or writer could just test a bunch of ideas out and then you're just playing them back and you're like you know what the shrimp scene ain't quite it but if I tweet two or three things there's like something there you know I think we're like I think we're there now and like we just need to put the pieces together

no you're absolutely right and what has opened up as well is a whole world of personalization like imagine right in the future that we can generate in real time some of these episodes some of these shows even you know with the game engines and 3D quality links so much more advanced even realistic looking TV shows that it's all personalized based on your taste you know with like the social graph and so much of our interests and hobbies and dislikes being available online it is very easy for someone to create a virtual model of what you would be or what you like and then have a TV show or anything in real time be optimized for what you care about and then be available for you to

binge watch all without any human being for the most part being involved

yeah I think we're about to enter a new age which is like the uh the simulation business it's like moving past linear storytelling you know like film is a technology uh it's on a reel which plays back linearly because it is just arranged linearly out of a projector and then we eventually move that over to digital but like video timelines are still sequences of of frames because we can do stuff in real time because we can make it mutate in faster than real time in some cases um I I'm like certain we're gonna see more of this stuff happen I mean we already see it in games there's a reason uh people have such an affinity to playing games because it's an opportunity to to spend more time in

these simulations and I think there's we're only scratching the surface on stuff like console and PC games it's like that's one way to interact with a a simulation where there's goals but there's like stuff that's a little less uh interactive a little more passive there's stuff that's just purely for entertainment there's stuff that you could watch with your pals or consume with your pals uh it's it's like uh yeah I think we'll definitely see it in written work first you know if you look at like you know I'm probably getting the author wrong but I believe James Patterson is a very prolific author he writes many many books a year and I think the way he does it is that he often writes the first paragraph in a

chapter and the closing paragraph in a chapter almost like the keyframes and animators might specify and then he hands it off to other writers to go and fill in the all the details the tweening part of it I can totally imagine that being something that you know I think chat GPT or any of the current text-based Services could easily solve and that is in many ways to precursor you know personalized books optimize for your particular mood and your interest leading to eventually the video version of that or the animated version of that that would be almost One Step Beyond like what Netflix has been experimenting with I think it's called Balderdash I think the one of their interactive TV shows where we can watch show other

options and depending on what option you choose the rest of the movie changes kind of like your old Choose Your Own Adventure books and I think this is going to be done at scale with AI yeah I mean uh I don't know if you've how deep you've gone into just playing with the the large language models that are out there but I mean chat GPT is probably the easiest way to to experiment with it um but you could do some like you can start to really feel into that already if you do stuff as simple as crafter your your prompts well enough like I've done some stuff where um and actually it was before chat GPT was a was was available to the public I was

playing with um another company's large language model that they gave me access to and I was using it to prototype um like prototype and test the rules of a personality of a character that I've been working on um and I'd already written a bunch of sort of like lore about the character let's say it was like six or seven paragraphs of like this is basically the operating principles of of the character right um and you you can say stuff like this character comes from a lab it likes joking about Shrek uh it feels this way about this if if you you create the keyframes of character right you don't have to specify everything but you're you're kind of outlining the shape of its its mind and its its thoughts you

can tell these large language models that are connected to to chatbot stuff like okay I would I would like you to role play as this character here are all the things that we know about the character right and then you tell it like here it is give the payload and I was like got it okay I'm this I'm this now I'm a horse I'm a horse that loves roller skating and then you can start like um you can start poking at the character which is so fun because then you could say like um hey uh horsey you want to go to the rodeo today and eat ice cream it's like no I don't have a mouth or you know whatever like it it it it it

like checks itself in a way and you start to now get these like uh like sub simulations running of these like almost sentient feeling characters and then you can start to like prototype stuff where it's like okay now there's another character in the universe that you may bump into what would happen if you put those two in a room write a script about it um chat to all three of them in a chat room it's just it it's actually pretty crazy that you can virtualize a bunch of this stuff within those those models as well did you see any experiments where people were like um like effectively spinning up virtual machines inside uh inside the models they're like pretend you're um like you're a uh an instance of like

Linux and I'm inside your uh terminal I'm in the what what's in the home directory run this command what would happen and it was like role playing is like a has a computer

you know this is all like opens up a whole new interesting world that's actually listening to the you know one of the podcasts I listen to is Lex Friedman's podcast and he had Todd Howard Todd Howard is the creator of many famous games like Skyrim and Fallout and so on which in many ways are simulations in a whole world where you have individuals you have characters that have their own lives that is happening in parallel while you're doing your thing and one of the things he's explaining is that we had to do a lot of work to make these characters less realistic sometimes because oftentimes you might have these non-playable characters in the background having conversations pick up really powerful weapons and just start doing whatever it

is that they do which might be counter to what you might want to do in a game and this is all like starting to come to the point where it used to be theoretical and very sci-fi and futuristic that will get into a situation where our computers have a life of their own and they're doing all these activities but we're starting to see large examples of that in virtual video games specifically which is again just almost the precursor to us seeing it in more everyday situations

yeah man I think we're entering an era of magic now too it's just covered fire for the first time almost right yeah yeah like dude I got like I got Blaze last night and re-watched like the most recent Transformers movie which is not that good of course but um you gotta get to watch it though it's not about if it's good or not you just gotta watch it because you've seen the other six or seven already exactly and honestly I'm sometimes I like smoothing my brain with with those those movies and enjoying watching hundreds of millions of dollars of like the best special effects just on screen it at once right but I started to run through the the process of okay maybe like five years

ago just the thought of like this is ridiculous I'll suspend my disbelief okay I'm I I have like to watch Transformers successfully you have to believe that like an alien race of like robots basically came in from uh Cybertron to Earth okay that's a big freaking stretch but like fast forward to now and we're just seeing how quickly things are like evolving I I I had this like very high moment last night where I was like wait a moment something like that almost seems feasible like it could happen like what if an AI escaped it like somehow worked out how to do freaking time travel or some crazy like built a race of like metal based organisms using some technology that we don't quite understand and then they

crash back into Earth like it just it just seems like these things that we thought were just so ridiculous have started Landing into culture as real these things that seemed like they were magic are now Within Reach what these things can unlock if the promise of these things um continue to go the way they do reality is about to get even weirder man like outside of just the stuff we're seeing the computer push back it's like people are going to be having these weird higher order like ideas about how to affect the the atoms of reality now because they're going to get all these like crazy Universe cheat codes out of this like surely the physical world's just gonna go through some mutations that we

did not see comment

you know we spent like I'd say a lot of the 1800s and 1900s predicting what the year 2000 would be like or the year 2020 and so on and we're off by a wild margin the reality was not quite as grandiose as people imagined it to be you know 50 60 100 years ago but the funny thing is what we're seeing now though is I don't think anyone is imagine what the future will be like and what they have imagined is far more conservative than what the reality of it is or even seeing today because the idea that large language models and then the related follow-ups from that can actually recreate so many things without humans being involved with reasonable speed I think no one

really expected that to be happening at least at this speed

yeah I think it's also forced everyone's hand to like it almost slapped them awake in a beautiful way to be like yo like turn on your imagination now because you've got this imagination engine that's in front of you all this stuff that maybe people were naysayers about is like becoming possible and it's like it's there are definitely people who are freaking out about it but I just have such an optimistic uh view on what's going on in a way that honestly I didn't even feel like a couple years ago when there was a lot of a lot more like rat racy energy around the crypto boom that was going on where that felt like so much smoke and mirrors and people just trying to dunk on each other and

get one over each other and and and this is like it it just feels like such a a gift like we we've been just stuck in Computing for so long and it just felt like we could almost see the edge of of that reality and now it just like opened up into a space where no like no one knows what the hell is going on like the the best people in it are like like unsure themselves of what what like what what is coming and it's just you know you watch the two minute paper guy have you seen them before the guy guys always like what a time to be alive I've been watching this dudes like videos on YouTube for as long as that channel has

been around one of his catchphrases was you know he'll show you a crazy piece of technology and be like what a time to be alive he's got a great accent and a optimism but it's it it's true it's just like crazy that we actually get to like be on the the rod of this stuff like we've talked about there being something touching down one day into our culture which could like give us some uh some hope or some answers and it's just like unfolding in front of us right now um it's yeah every day is is I think like pretty exciting in the space you just can't keep up with it

yeah I think what has also happened is that you know a lot of us have been kind of you know been burnt by upcoming new technologies fizzling out very quickly because they didn't quite have the longevity of what they were promising like for me chat Bots are always something that comes up like we've been talking about chat Bots for decades now it's like every few years it's like they need chat technology is going to revolutionize how humans communicate and so on right and every single time that hype would basically fall back into nothingness because it did not live up to that or people don't want to talk to something that you know by typing and so on but I think with this model though it's like the initial hype is now

continuing to you know be relevant and also carrying forward as well so it doesn't have any risk of fizzling out I think you're seeing a lot of Skeptics I'd say me included for the most part actually looking at this and going okay you know this isn't just all smoke and mirrors isn't just all flash with no substance there actually is something to and so I think it's a lot to be said about that

yeah man I I think it's um the way it's unfolded is also taken a lot of people by surprise like I think even Sam eltman was was talking about this just like the Theory or the commonly accepted like projection of where AI would go was um it would replace like the blue collar type Jobs first it would take some of the you know white collar jobs last and the very last at the the end of the line that would be feather ruffled would be artists because that's like you know even though they're starving it's kind of one of the ultimate privileges to have and then to just watch it kind of happen in the exact opposite order where it's like oh wait a moment these computers

and these models you know forget like the the of course like backlash that is happening right now for I'd say as an as an artist that appreciates both sides of the argument the that is happening with with um like the generative art stuff is so compelling and interesting and who would have guessed that like the first thing to start making waves would be computers making art it's like that seems to have been like the wedge that cracked things open and then it was like language and poetry and like all of these other things and not like uh cars are like really good at driving themselves that I don't think we've seen much progress there but on the like like oh okay Engineers you kind of got

like a fire lid on your ass now uh artists like you're gonna have to kind of evolve it's just uh been a funny like cultural rug pull but I think like super healthy because it's just shaking everything up it's it's so different feeling to how other technologies have have come into like these Trends we can just see like oh the incentive for this is people want to get rich or this thing would really like benefit a particular shareholder or this thing is just fashionable right now this this feels more like um Genie is out of the lamp like it's got a natural underlying energy to it that no one is I don't think like it doesn't feel like there's individuals like working in the background to coordinate

something and like run a scam on on people or a pyramid scheme it's just like oh no everyone's tuned in on energy right now where like cognition is evolving like as a as a as a group and I I don't know how it feels for you but I mean for me I just I I just think it's undeniable

yeah no I think it's a lot to be you know a lot to unpack on that but I know we're also like approaching our time here at Pascal but you know what I think we should have you back on again to talk about the art piece specifically I think we covered a lot of ground on AIML in general and how it's going to transform society and at least our day-to-day lives but I think we definitely want to you know at least I definitely dive deeper with you onto the art piece I think that might be a part two of it at some point in the future

oh I'm totally down I'm totally down