# Impact of AI on UI/UX Design with Chloe Barreau 🎨

by [kirupa](https://www.kirupa.com/me/index.htm) | filed under [Interviews with Creative People](https://www.kirupa.com/podcast/index.htm)

[Chloe Barreau](https://smallbuilds.club/) looks at AI through a designer’s lens: exciting, useful, and still full of tradeoffs. She explains why rapid prototyping changes the value of design work, how prompt craft and visual judgment shape outcomes, where implementation still feels awkward, and why personalized interfaces may grow fastest in places where flexibility matters more than strict consistency.

Watch the interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4

A conversation with **Chloe Barreau** | 52m

## About this conversation

Chloe Barreau frames AI as a shift in where design effort belongs. If rough prototypes, images, and flow variations can now be produced much faster, then the scarce part of the job moves upward. Problem framing, systems thinking, taste, user understanding, and quality judgment matter more, not less. That idea gives the interview real clarity. It is not a conversation about whether AI can make outputs. It clearly can. The more interesting question is what kinds of decisions become more valuable once output is cheaper. Chloe argues that designers and design-minded technologists need to spend more time deciding what should exist, who it is for, and what good actually looks like.

The interview is especially strong once it gets concrete about everyday practice. Chloe talks through prompt iteration, visual generation, and the difference between an output that is flashy and one that is genuinely well designed. She is open to using the tools, but she does not romanticize them. Better results depend on better direction, better taste, and better evaluation. That realism also sharpens her comments about implementation. If the end result is visual, it is fair to question why so much interface building still requires awkward handoffs between visual thinking and low-level code. AI does not solve that mismatch on its own, but it makes the mismatch feel harder to ignore.

The later discussion around personalized interfaces is especially thoughtful. Chloe can imagine systems that adapt layout, imagery, and journeys to fit different users more closely, which opens interesting possibilities for accessibility and consumer experiences. At the same time, she is careful about where that logic breaks down. In enterprise products and other high-trust contexts, consistency, reproducibility, and supportability still matter a great deal. That balance keeps the conversation grounded. AI expands the range of interface possibilities, but it does not remove the need for constraints. Humans still decide what should change, what must stay stable, and what kind of experience is actually worth shipping.

## What you'll hear about

- As prototyping gets cheaper, framing and evaluation become more valuable parts of design.
- Prompting is iterative craft, not a one-line shortcut to good work.
- Generated visuals can be impressive without meeting a real production quality bar.
- There is still too much friction between visual intent and implementation on the web.
- Personalized interfaces may emerge faster in consumer contexts than in enterprise software.

## Jump to a topic

- [0:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=0s) **Design, technology, and AI**: Chloe opens with her background and why she has been paying close attention to AI’s effect on design work.
- [6:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=360s) **Learning by experimenting**: She talks about keeping up with rapid tool change by testing systems directly in real workflows.
- [12:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=720s) **Prompting as design craft**: The conversation gets specific about prompt iteration and how better direction produces better visual results.
- [21:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=1260s) **Beyond fixed interfaces**: Chloe explores AI-generated journeys, scenes, and interface possibilities that move past static assets.
- [28:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=1680s) **Why implementation still feels awkward**: She questions the friction between visual creation and the HTML, CSS, and JavaScript stack that follows.
- [36:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=2160s) **Impressive versus actually good**: This section looks at generated branding and imagery through the lens of taste, precision, and production readiness.
- [45:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=2700s) **Personalized interfaces with guardrails**: The conversation ends on adaptive UI, accessibility potential, and why enterprise products may move more cautiously.

## To learn more

- [Chloe's Small Builds](https://smallbuilds.club/)
- [Chloe's Small Builds Newsletter](https://smallbuilds.substack.com/)
- [Chloe's Magic Cut Figma Plugin](https://www.figma.com/community/plugin/1234171506421686729/Magic-Cut)
- [Chloe's Twitter](https://twitter.com/barofclo)

## Transcript

The automatically generated captions have been organized by speaker, lightly edited for clarity, and broken into paragraphs for readability. Names and wording may still contain errors.

### [0:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=0s) - Kirupa

Hi everybody. Today I'm excited to talk with Chloe Barreau. Chloe has been living at the intersection of design, technology, and AI for some time and sharing a lot of her work and learnings publicly. In this fun and visually interactive chat, we're going to talk about how AI has changed and will change how we create visual content, how it applies to user interfaces, and how a lot of our creative roles will need to adapt. This is going to be a fun one, so let's get started.

Chloe, it's absolutely great to chat with you, and we're going to be having this in a pretty virtual environment and doing all kinds of interactive things on screen, so it's a whole new format. I'm excited to try this out, to learn more about you and your interests, how you got started, and all the fun things that you do. So before we go on, can you please introduce yourself?

### [0:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=46s) - Chloe Barreau

Yeah, of course. So I'm Chloe. I kind of have a hard time categorizing myself into any one thing. I'd say I'm a designer, engineer, also a product person. I'm just very interdisciplinary by Nature. I'm currently wrapping up my masters at Stanford. I'm very interested in the intersection of computer science and art.

### [1:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=67s) - Kirupa

Really cool. So right now I'm currently looking at what looks like a portfolio of various things you worked on, you know. Can you walk me through it?

### [1:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=79s) - Chloe Barreau

Yeah, I figured it would be helpful to share some of the tools that I've used over time. For on the design side, which is something that I've been doing since 2018- UI, ux, design-. It started off with Sketch, figma and vision, and now my workflow incorporates things like mid-journey, and so I include some screenshots as well. I think in the last year, I've been Amazed by the number of tools that can use a form of Engineering in the art practice, whether that's mid-journey, using a pen plotter or doing things with more Graphics, like in blender.

### [1:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=112s) - Kirupa

So before we get even there, let's go all the way back. What got you interested in computers and in UI and engineering and all these fun topics?

### [2:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=122s) - Chloe Barreau

Yeah, ah, making something from scratch. You also get that with making art right, like you take your crayon and paper and as soon as you make a mark you see, visualize on a screen what you've done. And I feel similarly with web development and just computer science. You're really making something from the ground up, and I think that's what's always attracted me, but even more so Technology's impact on people, because a lot of people now have cell phones. You can make something that becomes accessible to a lot of people, and that's really exciting to me as well.

### [2:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=161s) - Kirupa

What's the first thing you ever remember creating?

### [2:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=164s) - Chloe Barreau

Poof, creating in general. Well, I mean, I started with little Clay figurines. To be honest, in terms of Art, in terms of, like technical stuff, I made a website to sell my jewelry, and that was using PayPal, and really janky, janky website Basics that's. That's actually quite pretty cool. We're using a platform like Shopify or Etsy, or we're building it entirely on your own and it's going to be PayPal at the end. Yeah, it was just me and my sister doing it like Bare Bones, and then something called store Envy existed at the time, where I then hosted my products, basically the equivalent of Shopify or, Etsy.

### [3:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=209s) - Kirupa

So I'm looking at the screen and I see what looks like a plotting device, like a mechanical plotting device. Okay, tell me more about what's going on here.

### [3:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=218s) - Chloe Barreau

One is called the axi draw and it's a machine that draws for you. So, in the world of automation, instead of you having to go and use your bare hands to grab a pastel or a pen to make them work, it will actually take your instructions and do that for you.

### [3:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=235s) - Kirupa

That's really cool. So your singers currently studying HCI or human computer interaction, correct, correct? When I took, you know, I did not major in HCI, major in computer science, but when I took a few classes in that area because my hobby and interest were always around the intersection between development, engineering and UI development, it was very different. Back then, you know, we used Java, we use swing.

You know this is like 2006, so it's like a quite a while ago- at MIT, the media lab, and the thing we were always focusing on was, like you know, the basics of all the various techniques on how to make sure the UI is discoverable, how to make this work, you know, in a nice way, and over the years, though, the entire discipline seems to have gotten much more formalized. There's a lot more resources, a lot more just but general knowledge on what to do here, but AI has also changed a whole lot of it as well, because nowadays, I look at it, I go.

I used to have to build a web page by running HTML, CSS, JavaScript and a framework. Now I just jump into framer or webflow, and all of these have like really nice either tools to generate content for me. I think canva does a lot of good things in this area as well. So I'm curious to know, like you know you're, you're studying at write this intersection, where, a year ago, half these things that exist and right now a lot of things exist, and by the time you graduate, more things will exist as well.

How have you been able to, like you know, navigate through this massive amount of change, especially in the field that you're currently studying in? Yeah.

### [5:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=321s) - Chloe Barreau

Well, I mean, I think you're right that prototyping has been become much easier, and so I think when that happens, you start thinking about higher level questions, of how like people interact with screens and systems, which is cool. And you're also right that there's been a lot of change. I mean, every month or so there's something new that comes out. And I think my Approach has been try to use it whenever I can. So when I'm designing something, when I'm implementing something, I go to chat, gbta, your mid-journey- to see how it can help me, and kind of build off of its first draft. And it's been surprisingly effective.

I mean, for mid-journey I wouldn't say it produces like a polished output, but it's been really helpful in helping me generate ideas and brainstorm along the way. Yeah, I think whenever I can, I try to see how far it can get me and then I fill in the rest that AI cat.

### [6:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=373s) - Kirupa

And the part you're filling in, I think, is like the magic secret sauce that a human being can provide that an AI might not be able to do. You feel that at some point, those gaps that humans need to be intervening will also be replaced. Where AI ends up, you know, solving it in a nice way.

### [6:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=390s) - Chloe Barreau

I mean we're trying to do that right, like we're trying to have multiple AI agents to give feedback to each other and kind of help each other fill in, but I don't think it's ever perfect, especially since AI has difficulty with context, and I think that can be really helpful for a human to be in the loop and to create, I guess, what people call alignment or just more feedback,. So I don't think it's like 100 replaceable, but I do think there's a lot of really cool work being done to minimize how much we actually need to weigh in as humans.

### [7:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=422s) - Kirupa

Yeah, no, that's. That's a good point, and because I always look back at the loads of abstractions that have been added even before AI existed. You know the way the tools we use. Back then at least I never had to use it. But I see examples of like latex being a Syntax for marking up documents for various activities. Now we just use other Microsoft Word or Google Docs and we just write naturally the way we think we should write, and behind the scenes, I'm sure the representation is horrifically complex, but we don't worry about it anymore.

I sometimes do think that AI might fill in that same kind of a bucket where we'll be working on more higher order things and not worrying about the basic areas of creation. But the thing I also worry about is I'm a product manager. I see what chat GPT can create for common questions and situations based on cost knowledge, because for the most part, none of us are like trying to build Rockets to go on outer space. We're just solving existing problems in a new contextual way, which unfortunately, isn't that AI is fantastic at. And so have you ever run into those kind of situations where you're like you know?

Will my skill set even be valuable? You know, a year, two or three year from now.

### [8:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=489s) - Chloe Barreau

I've, I'm not as scared as maybe most. I mean this makes me like a tech Optimist, I don't know. But, when I see the output from something like chat- cheap, but you're even my journey, like you can tell- I mean I can recognize it for Mid Journey, for sure for chatty, but it's a little harder and I think it's because it takes so much of like past data that it becomes just very stereotypical.

And I think where we as individuals can be helpful- so we each have our unique perspectives- a lot of subjective Aesthetics and opinions on how text and tone should exist, and so that specificity really helps and I think that's where I can continue to, find myself valuable in the process. I'll kind of stray it into more of a niche than it's currently doing.

### [8:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=538s) - Kirupa

So you mentioned Midjourney. Should I go to the Midjourney section in the Figma file?

### [9:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=543s) - Chloe Barreau

Sure, yeah. Actually, we can go to the AI tools section. I don't know if I should assume that people know what Midjourney is, so I'll just briefly describe it. It's similar to DALL-E, if people are familiar with OpenAI's DALL-E. It allows you to take a piece of text and translate it into an image using AI, and Midjourney specifically is for visuals. They don't do text to text, at least for now, and a lot of artists and creative people have been interfacing with Midjourney, which exists on Discord, because of just how much it can help with the creative process. So I have an example of that here.

### [9:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=587s) - Kirupa

Yep, so here you are describing in Fairly good detail a soda can and then describing all the various levels of output you want the system to create, and it created essentially four variations.

### [10:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=601s) - Chloe Barreau

Yeah, and I think this is where you kind of see the progression of trying to understand and Wrangle these AI tools. At first, I started off with just like a simple sentence that I thought was descriptive, and then I realized that people are putting in so much like detail and Nuance in these prompts to try and bring more life to the image, and so then I started doing the same and you can see it's like almost a paragraph of descriptions that aren't exactly coherent.

They're really just words strung together, to try and enhance the prompt, and I think what's interesting for me to see now is that sometimes that's not sufficient. Like, looking at these images, they're okay knowing that they're made by AI, but they're not something I would actually put out in the world. And what has helped is using reference image- reference images which, if you go to the right I provided one and that, to me at least, looks so much better.

So what I'm doing here is providing an image that I think, as a human, is what I'm going for, and then adding a really simple sentence to give it a little more guidance. It's just so much better than having spent time writing an entire paragraph. So stuff like that, where you learn how to get what you want with the AI tool over time just by trial and error.

### [11:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=679s) - Kirupa

It's almost as if you replace traditional programming with English language, but prompt engineering and designing the input that goes into it is going to become, in its own way, a very lucrative and educational environment for people who learn programming.

### [11:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=695s) - Chloe Barreau

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I don't know that it's like exactly the same as programming, but, it's definitely a new, a new skill, and I think a lot of it is experimentation and observational rather than pure logic, which I find super interesting because I like working in those gray areas.

### [11:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=711s) - Kirupa

Absolutely. I've seen a lot of proposals for new schemas for making prompts more formalized in terms of what the output can be, and it looks like a combination of XML and JSON. It was very interesting to see the specs being created, at least for, I think, ChatGPT, where there's a very formal structure for defined input. To me that looked pretty comprehensive and also a little bit like, okay, I learned one more thing here, which is exciting. Actually, I love learning new things here, so I've been fiddling with that. This is even more natural, though. I'd rather describe it in English, just like as a human being.

If I was conversing with that person, how would I describe it? This just feels more appropriate.

### [12:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=751s) - Chloe Barreau

Yeah, it does feel more appropriate. I think an interesting HCI question, though, is expectations versus reality, right? When you start getting people to use just natural language, they're going to start talking to the machine as if it actually is a person, and there are a lot of things that the machine won't actually understand that you think it does as a result of having a huge human-language interface rather than something a little bit more constrained.

### [12:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=773s) - Kirupa

Yeah, there's always this expectation of the real human being that I might have said 80 words, of which only 50 might actually be the real thing I'm actually looking for. That dirty might be, you know, just context, but not really important. The machine, at least as of right now, may not know that. So I might say, like casually mentioned, like I need to have like a reflective background, and you're like no, that he's kidding. There's no way it was a reflected background. But the system would be like: oh, reflect the background. Check. Let me go ahead and create a reflective background.

So it's going to be a little bit more of like this behavioral change in how we start expressing our ideas.

### [13:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=805s) - Chloe Barreau

For sure. Yeah, and I'm excited for that to evolve. I mean, right now, mid journey is All Tech space and I think the ways that we express our ideas, especially for visual images, is visual. It's not in text, and so if we can get to a point where we're like sketching ideas and using like basic sketches to guide, the output, that would really be cool. And I mean that people are working on it. Mid journey is going to work on it, but yeah, I think that's the next phase.

### [13:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=833s) - Kirupa

The exciting part also is that, you know, I grew up in a world where there wasn't Facebook or Twitter just yet. You know, just as I was, like you know, entering into, like high school, I saw, like you know, like Twitter was just starting to become more popular, and then a lot of studies that I've been reading over the years.

I can't pinpoint any exact one, but the often said that because of the influence of social media- Facebook, Twitter and all these things- people's behaviors have changed a certain extent as well, like the things that they do and say in their typical day, there's more things that are doing that's different than what they've done in a world where these things not exist.

And I often wonder, because let's say that we all become, you know, really good at defining prompts in a way that computers can really understand, and so you start thinking about problems in terms of like okay, I've had to give this to a computer, how would I translate it into all these you know finite steps? Would that end up changing how you and I would end up conversing at some point? Because in my mind, I'm like so trained to automatically jump to prompts as a way of like expressing what I'm trying to do.

And then, when we all start changing our talkings style, the words we used to be different, will it tone, be different, spacing- that's what I'm actually really curious about. When this becomes really popular, how much will our own behavior have changed? Hmm?

### [15:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=907s) - Chloe Barreau

Yeah, I mean, I think social media has changed our behavior and using a lot of AI tools certainly will as well. But it's hard to extrapolate because I think the AI tools are changing so quickly I don't actually know what format will stick. If it ends up being very similar to chat GPT, then maybe our communication will get more concise and literal, maybe that will be an outcome. But I yeah, I mean, that's the whole purpose of HCI, right, the belief that humans interactions with technology will change Vice Versa. Let me take a second to remove my email tab so that it's not making sounds in the background. Oh yeah.

### [15:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=951s) - Kirupa

I did not hear any of it, so kudos to the echo cancellation. Noise cancellation at Riverside might be happening. I'm sure it's AI-powered in some sense as well, which, you know, I mean, everything is called AI these days, but the reality is that it's just simple pattern matching, which has always existed for a very, very long time. So it's a buzzword.

### [16:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=972s) - Chloe Barreau

Yeah, I mean, that's the other thing, right? AI is kind of making guesses about what to add and what to remove, and I think it's a helpful skill for humans to know when AI might do that. So for audio, we might assume it's going to remove some background noise, and that's an understanding. But when technology moves so fast, sometimes it's removing or adding things that humans aren't generally cognizant of, and I think that's where it gets scary.

### [16:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=994s) - Kirupa

That's where it gets scary, absolutely. I was reading this article on AI tools that historically retouch photos from like 100 years ago, 200 years ago and so on, and a lot of the criticism is that no one really exactly knows what the exact colors were used and things like that, and what the AI is ultimately creating is almost recreating what history might have been, because it gives you eight variations you have to pick and choose. Is this the right coming like?

Well, I mean, I want to choose what makes the most sense to me, looking at the context of 2023, this seems like why we might appropriately be it and, of course, we have some general idea of, like you know, brick must probably be in the color of a brick and the edges must probably be like you know, brick, cement break and all these things, but it then it loses the authenticity in some cases as well.

Yeah, exactly, I mean I think it's interesting to think about when is it okay for something to look broken right and for something to visually admit that it's not there, where there isn't confidence in what to display?

### [17:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=1057s) - Chloe Barreau

I think right now we're operating in. Okay, can we productize all these images? Can we like make all of these Technologies practical? And so it'll we err on just guessing the color of the image, filling it in, but maybe it's okay for there to be gaps and to kind of visually show how the system doesn't know something. Yeah, which is always funny, because when.

### [18:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=1083s) - Kirupa

You study history, oftentimes they talk about like, how our perceptions of History are often due to the lens of our present way of interpreting various events and things like historiography or something like that. I could be wrong about the word, but you know that. You know, when someone looks at a situation in the 1800s of like what happened in, let's say, the 1600, their interpretation of it will be very different than us looking at it right now, and so some of the common feedback you get is: you know, these AI photos that are coming in.

It's natural, because our interpretation will always be changing and this is the it might actually be accurate, because for our current moment in time, this is our history and our understanding of the world has always been. It's always a beautiful lens of what we just learned and how our perception is, so it's always funny seeing all these things.

### [18:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=1125s) - Chloe Barreau

Yeah, yeah, that's true. I don't know about you, but I don't know how many people are actually aware of, like, what a mid Journey, well, what journey is and what a majority image looks like. So there's also, I think, who sees the AI art or tools that you create is important, because the average person may look at a warpy mid-journey image and have a very different takeaway from someone like myself or yourself who's a bit familiar with what's going on.

### [19:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=1153s) - Kirupa

Yeah, I think we're in The Cutting Edge here. You know, we're basically right at almost the ground floor, trying out all of these various things and learning what's going to happen. I think a lot of these services will ultimately be made more readily available in more common things that people use on a day-to-day basis. You know, like we're seeing how, like, both the Google search engine and the Bing search engine are going to be adding AI prompts and generating visuals, naturally as a part of their data activity.

That's going to be a lot more people, because you know most people like you mentioned, you right, they probably don't know about mid-journey or chat, GPT or stable diffusion or the difference in all these things are, but they're probably to go to Google and type in a question about like find me the best pizza in this location, and they may end up benefiting from the results of all the things we're doing right now being returned for them, and it could even be a death question of like you know how do I get from point A to point B?

There may be sequences of the journey where it's generated by AI because actual photos don't exist, but we have enough context that's available and you'll never know. You know what is AI and what isn't? Yeah, or maybe we'll know what's AI, what isn't, if HCI doesn't stop. Well, but yeah, it is exciting for all this to become more just, commonly used and, because it's so Cutting Edge, we're trying to like reimagine what these interfaces look like. It's almost like CGI in movies. You know, it was one of those things where back long time ago, the techniques for doing CGI were very primitive.

You know, I think that's like like Wizard of Oz or something, where it talked about how, like the- I forget what are the characters it's. You know where the show it was like. You know, blue and like the face morphed. It was actually because they used a different lens on the camera that optimized for blue in one scene and red in the other, so it made it look like the face is morphing. And that was the technology back then, whereas today, of course, it's all done on the computer.

You know, you watch any modern film, it's often hard to tell what is real and what is green screen and what is actually done, you know, by clever visual tricks.

### [21:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=1273s) - Chloe Barreau

And I do worry sometimes that we make games at world where it looks real, sounds real and it may also be just, you know, to us our perception is like, yeah, it is real.

### [21:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=1284s) - Kirupa

Yeah, yeah, it could just be the accepted reality, but no, the thing that always excites me about this kind of the new technology comes in. There's a generation of people who are, like you know, a little worried. They always say like, oh no, this is going to take what I'm doing, and the term is like creative destruction. The idea is that as technology, you know, moves forward, as things happen, people will find more higher level Pursuits to follow as opposed to doing what they've done before. We saw that with, like, the rise of Photoshop on illustrators.

You know, someone I spoke recently used to design Billboards for a living in the 80s and once the digital you know, tools became really popular, he transitioned to learning digital tools and became very successful doing, like film intros and so on. So, you know, I do think there's an exception. I think a lot of people end up, you know, doing something very different and I'd be curious to see, like, how all of this changes essentially what you know you will be doing, you know, in the future, in your career, and how, what I will be doing as I'm currently doing right now, how that was evolved as well.

For sure, we'll have a check-in a couple years from now, exactly, exactly. So I'm looking at some of the other parts. You know Parts in the, in the fake my document anywhere else I should go to continue this conversation.

### [22:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=1354s) - Chloe Barreau

Oh, there are a bunch of parts - zoom out of it- foreign cool oh, okay, yeah, we can talk about like what it means for these tools to become just like common common knowledge, commonly accessed in the case of art. So up there, actually, yeah, where it says the hand versus the machine or a machine versus hand. Yeah, let me zoom in here. I think it's exciting for people to see that there are a lot of people working with technology and art and making really cool stuff. None of the so what you're seeing here, those are not mine. That's from the generative Art Club.

It's a community on slack of, I think, around 500 people right now. Using technology to create beautiful pieces. And I've started working those mediums too, which, if you scroll down, you'll also see and I think what comes through to me is that people's Styles and their sensibilities do translate in the machine. I think oftentimes people wonder: if you're using AI tools, if you're using technology, does that mean that the artist is kind of just gone and it's the machine doing all the work, like we should get?

Give the machine all the credit, and I think when you see all these different styles of outputs, you realize that it's still us, as individuals, that are helping to guide and determine what looks good or what we want to have as an output.

### [23:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=1439s) - Kirupa

Exactly like something like this. Creating it manually would take probably 20 times the amount of time it might have taken then going to a machine and like prompting it and making edits even to what has already been created. Exactly right, and so that's, I guess, what people call affordances in HCI. Like: what does the technology afford you?

And as you rightly describe, some of these things would take forever by hand, and so when it becomes so much faster to produce with a machine, then you can get into more complex shapes, you can get into more complex textures, maybe you have more detail or more variations in color that you might not be able to achieve by hand.

You know, very cool, one of the things that I remember always- you know sticking it from when I took some of these classes back in the day- is that they always say: like you want to solve the problem, the domain you're currently in, and so if you're selling a visual problem, you want to solve it visually, and if you're solving a logic problem, you want to represent that in a logical fashion.

Somewhere along the way we kind of, like you know, lost track of that, and so I go back to, like coding, there's no reason why someone should spend so much time writing between HTML, CSS and JavaScript- three very different languages- but the output is something very visual. If I want to Center something on the screen, why am I not doing it in a more, you know, direct manipulation style way? Why am I actually writing bizarre lines in English or English like text, putting some numbers in, when the output is Visual?

And that's where I think the AI tools have really, like, brought that all whole thing full circle, because we always had low code tools and no code tools, but the challenge with them is that you always just Bound by what their the definition of done is or their level of support for things. It's like a box that you really, if you were break that box and go in, the tools no longer work.

You know you make one minor change manually to the output, the round tripping where what, what's the final output and what the low code tool generated, falls apart, versus AI that is completely, you know, removed, which even is very primitive state. I'm very impressed with the output on these projects and I can only imagine what happens in the future when we decide that you know programming will is not going to be the traditional world of I'm writing some things in a text editor waiting for accomplishing build step, instead, just like mid-journey. I'm going to describe what the upload will be.

You know, the prompt engineering work will be more complicated, I guess, because then it defined more of the interactions, the states that need to be defined. You know, hopefully it won't be done in text, hopefully be done in more, maybe a slides form, it maybe figma, it could even be just, you know, framework visuals and like various scenes and it's upload that it says: okay, I can see the transitions, I'm going to code it up. It doesn't matter anymore whether it's react or Tailwind or whatever framework, it's just going to be. Here's the output and that's what's going to be the thing we focus on.

### [26:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=1597s) - Chloe Barreau

Yeah, I. I think AI definitely provides a lot of adaptability. And I'm excited for us to be able to say, hey, I want this to be on the web. This is what it looks like now go, and you're not constrained by webflow, not having all the Integrations framework charging you an extra 300 for for something else. Yeah, it'd be cool to have AIA agents that can just execute for you.

### [27:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=1622s) - Kirupa

Exactly because you know I could always think you know, make whatever talk to people about who work in, at least in Myspace, which is, like you know, design tools, developer tools and Frameworks- is that nobody ever wakes up saying I can't wait to spend eight hours a day writing code or I want to spend all this time, like you know, clicking around doing things. Some people do and I think you know they will always have something that they'll always be able to enjoy doing, just like people enjoy creating art in more traditional forms, and so I want to be very successful at that.

But if you look at the average, you know what is the most people looking for. It's like: I have a portfolio I need to get up and running. I need to sell a product- like in your case- and it sells something that I've created online. You probably don't want to fiddle with. Like what is the most? What's a secure way to process credit card Transaction? What is the regulations on what these policies are around the world? You just want to be taken care of.

You know, if you're using strike behind the scenes or any other service you're like, yeah, it's certain level, I might care, but in the day I don't really care, as long as it's a good user experience and I have a very friction-free way of being able to conduct what I'm trying to do, and I think that's the other part. I think AI might make them an interesting space.

### [28:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=1685s) - Chloe Barreau

Definitely yeah. I think what also comes to mind is it becomes more on us to determine where we want to learn, right, like, what areas do we want to spend time on when we're no longer required to spend the time learning something to get, say, a product out the door? We get a lot of freedom to choose, okay, well, am I gonna spend 10 hours of my day today just learning how to do it? Because that's something I'm just genuinely curious about, so I'm I'm interested in how people use their time in that world where AI can theoretically do anything for you.

### [28:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=1719s) - Kirupa

Exactly, and this always has arguments made around, especially in the educational community, on how important is it to learn the fundamentals of like something before you jump into tools that automatically do it for you. I was watching a documentary on- I believe it's a very famous sushi maker and he was talking about how he spent the first few years learning how to make the kind of the egg version of this, for, like you know, day in and day out, like they was never allowed to do anything beyond that.

You just got that perfect before he was allowed to move on from his instructor on more other things, and I obviously always struck me as an interesting concept because, you know, he explained like the fundamental techniques that he perfected in making just that kind of an item ended up translating into other areas where, if you jump directly into it would have been very difficult. And I always wonder how much is of what we're learning, and you know I spent a lot of time teaching developers how to do interesting things, that is, enjoy learning things and sharing it.

I wonder how much of what I'm doing and what people are doing today is even going to be relevant. Does it even matter at this point that you know what HTML is or what basic tags are? Does it even matter either that you know how to do brushes and compositions in Photoshop or Illustrator? I always question those things. I guess we'll see. But I feel like knowing, at the very least, the concepts behind those things can always be helpful. It depends on the use case, right, like you're saying.

### [30:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=1805s) - Chloe Barreau

If they really don't plan on becoming a developer and they just want to sell their jewelry or accomplish something, it may not be relevant for them to know the details of it. But yeah, it depends on their goals.

### [30:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=1819s) - Kirupa

Yeah, it's a. You know, I'm always reminded of an interesting story when I when I first joined, you know, as a product manager on a team that was building a design tool. You know, my first manager was, you know, well known in the industry for having built design tools, and we always have endless debates on: what does it mean for something to be a professional design tool? You know, my view was that if someone is building something, they should be focusing and telling the visual output. It doesn't matter what the underlying representation of it is going to be. His case was, of course, the counter.

He said, you know, for being a professional design tool, we don't expect the designer or the visual, you know- implementer here to know the intricacies of the markup or what things are going to be generated behind the scenes, but they should be able to know the trade-offs between choosing this particular option for how you lay things out versus the other option for laying things up, because that might have implications on performance. It may have implications on how does the scaling work when you're on a larger screen versus a smaller screen, and those were always some interesting conversations where there never was a clear answer.

It depends on what the what you're trying to do, but it also required someone who was purely visual to go one level deeper into technical Concepts and to be able to understand that. And then I often think back about it right now where, if we just describe, it needs to be responsive, it needs to be performant, will the AI system automatically take care of it, and does it now mean that I never need to know some of these things? A curse of your? Take on something like that?

### [31:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=1903s) - Chloe Barreau

I have difficulty imagining us not having to intervene at all, where we really can trust it producing a good output. It's performant and we move on with our lives, like, at least in the visual realm. I still have this sense of like. Okay, I want more control of what the output looks like, or what the image looks like, and I think that's where it's helpful to understand the tools that you're using at some level- not like in hyper detail, but.

I think that helps in getting impressive visual images when you don't feel constrained by things that you don't know about, and things just like working for some reason and you don't know why,. I think a good example of this is actually generative art. Right, like, a lot of generative artists spend more time curating than they do actually making the artwork itself.

And maybe that's the world that we go into with AI, where, if you don't aren't interested in spending time with constraining the tools or manipulating the tools to create the output that you want, then you end up spending more time curating and just running that system over and over and again until you get, hopefully, the output that you want.

But that just seems in my mind, that just seems more wasteful in terms of time, and a sense of like artistic pleasure, right, like part of art, is like your intention being there, at least for me, and so I find it valuable to be able to have my hands in creating the output.

### [33:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=2003s) - Kirupa

Exactly. It's often in case of, like you know, it comes to cooking as well, and you know, like I enjoy cooking every now and then, and so for me it's like you know, do I go with something that's like more you know, already made? Like where's, where's the line there? Like, do I actually pick the tomatoes fresh from like a grocery store? Do I go to an actual Farm or a garden and pick it, or do I go from a can of tomatoes and then start from there? In many ways, it's like what is your constraint right now, what you're trying to optimize for?

And if you genuinely enjoy spending time cooking, if that's your way of relaxing, then I'm like, yeah, I'm willing to spend more time not jumping to the intermediate step, but going more to the base, even if the output, for the most part, will be indistinguishable from me having done it versus me buying the can that already had the tomatoes seasoned. But I think knowing, okay, I could cook this myself or I can just get it pre-done.

### [34:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=2054s) - Chloe Barreau

I think that having that confidence is really valuable. When I'm making things, I find it helpful to know, okay, if I don't like this output, I know I could just do it from scratch. I think this is something I've noticed: a lot of Stanford students are good at knowing when to take shortcuts. Maybe that will be a skill that really translates in the AI setting. I mean, that's a beneficial skill in life in general. It's like knowing when to dive in and go into the details, and when to just say, you know what, this is out of my league.

I'm going to delegate to this service, this person, or this product. I think it's a good one to have.

### [34:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=2092s) - Kirupa

So let me zoom out a bit in the figma and see, you know, like other areas that we want to dive into in the same time. We can go into AI, or yeah, or mid Journey here too, if you want. Yeah, let's go into majority. Oh, these are fantastic. Let me zoom in.

### [35:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=2113s) - Chloe Barreau

Yeah, I mean for people, for people that haven't used my journey: I'm hoping that what we're seeing on the screen here can help conceptualize what it's doing. So if I just type in cat, it will- well, it will- produce four images of a realistic cat, because that is what my journey has the most data points, for it's most familiar seeing a cat in a photorealistic form. And if I is the designer, I'm actually wanting a cat logo. I can add that in to the prompts to then guide it into a better Direction, because mid Journey doesn't know that when you say cat, you mean a logo and not photorealistic image.

And so, on the right, you can see the progression of adding in more prompts, what that will get you, and then, if you go down, you'll see what re-rolling does. Re-rolling is generating new versions of the same prompts and sometimes, if you're lucky, it will actually create the cat logo that you had in mind. You can see on the far left, it went for a watercolor style instead of a photo realistic, just in case you were re-rolling for that that look.

### [36:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=2190s) - Kirupa

No, that is actually really cool because in so many creative you know sectors right, you're always you know. You get into a rut, you know, often based on familiarity or what you've done, it's often like you know. At least what I do is like I have a collection of like design magazines I've been collecting over the years. I'm like stuck on them, you know I need inspiration. I just go there, flip through it and I'm like, oh, that's interesting, that gets me out of my rut, gets me thinking differently, and then I apply it to whatever I'm doing right now.

Re-roll seems like the much simplified version of it, where 80 of it might not be exactly what I'm looking for, but just seeing that might trigger something in my brain that causes me to want to do something different. Yeah, exactly, I mean, that's where mid-journey is really helpful for artists, even today in its most primitive form. When you type in just a basic idea that you have, and you yourself have a conception of what you want, it will give you different outputs and sometimes you're like, well, actually that's not bad, I don't mind that, and that those are really fun moments.

With AI tools, you know there's a gray area that application take on is: a lot of these visuals are based on other visuals, often ones that people might have created, yet I don't see any way of knowing which of the 80 people who could have had photos at some point or represented here. So yeah, what do you think is the right solution?

### [37:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=2267s) - Chloe Barreau

What do I? That's a heavy, I mean. I think that is the question right now for artists in the space there needs to be. I mean, you start to see solutions for, text-based AI, for example. - I think it was Bing, I know Neva also did this- where you cite the sources in the text. So whenever it gives output, it'll have a little footnote or attribution to say, hey, this was from XYZ website, and that's better than nothing. Right, and right now, in mid-journey for visuals, you have nothing.

So it'd be great to just even have, something like that where it might say, okay, with high probability, these are the artists, these are the top three artists that influence this image. Because nothing's for certain with AI, right, like it's never, like it was a hundred percent this person, or rarely. Typically it's like percentages. So if we could just have some sense of the waiting of influences that go into a visual, I think that could be a step forward. Yeah, I think that's a great, great suggestion. You know I always go back to.

### [38:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=2329s) - Kirupa

Like when you look at code, for example, there's a very good chance that someone wrote exactly what you did in some other form. Do we get them credit at this point or not? Like, if I'm doing a simple Loop, for example, and it comes out by the AI system, like you know, at what point do we decide if this is common general purpose thing that everybody knows, which is this is very unique implementation that they probably need to get credit for. I think that also goes into the unknown territory, so we're all trying to explore. Yeah, I mean, that's a great way to think about it.

Like a threshold, almost right. Like I think we do that mentally with code. Like you're describing, if you feel like a lot of your code is starting to look like something you read a couple days ago, you kind of make the judgment to credit it. Maybe AI could do the same. Right, if it's below the threshold of some arbitrary 50 then it assumes that, hey, I'm the one, I'm the AI system that's mixing and mashing everything. I should get credit for being able to pull all these resources together in small fragments and then, if it's above that, then you have to put down who those artists are.

Yeah, I'm looking at these logos have been generated here. These look really, really nice, almost as if like a real human being created them. Because I'm thinking about, like back in the day when I had to create a logo like, for example, the one with the mountain and the various colors behind it. I'm like that would require me to go to a professional logo designer- you know, go through multiple iterations, whereas here I'm like: oh, I see four variations of what I'm trying to do.

They all look fantastic, and I'm sure if I just go back to Midjourney and do more prompts, I'll get the output I want very, very quickly.

### [40:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=2420s) - Chloe Barreau

Yeah, okay, so this is where I feel like, to me, these are all bad. I agree that it's good for AI, and maybe if we go back in time five years ago or 10 years ago, then this is amazing. But I do not think this is there yet. To me, this is equivalent to going on Fiverr and hiring someone for five bucks to make a logo. In that case, this is great. This can replace it for cheap. But if you're looking for something slightly more developed, I think there's a long way for AI to go.

### [40:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=2458s) - Kirupa

No, that is very fair, and I think it goes back to when the web became more democratized and anyone could create a web page and start uploading to whatever host they could. There was a gradient. Higher-quality content had a very distinct look and feel. Lower-quality design and content kind of felt that way too. I think we're going to see the same proliferation here, and then we're going to see the 110 truly good ones rise to the top. The power law applies in every sector. It's going to apply here as well.

A small percentage of individuals or organizations are going to create things where we're like, wow, this is iconic, this is what we want to aim for, and then everyone else will be able to do something good enough. What that does mean, though, is that more people who may not have the skills to create or design logos will still be able to do something good enough. I always go back to the clip art on my school assignments. It was very noticeable how bad it was.

I can absolutely imagine my daughter, who's now about five years old, going through her education and having teachers who may not have great artistic skills, but who will probably have higher-quality clip art, at least in my perception, than what was available before because the tooling will represent that in a more modern way. It'll be easier than whatever tool you were using back then. Absolutely.

### [42:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=2534s) - Chloe Barreau

Yeah, for sure. I mean, having access to these kinds of tools is super powerful and definitely raises the bar for everyone. Now that I've seen the bar raised to this level, I'm just excited for the bar to be raised even higher. So I'm ready for AI to become something that professional designers can feel comfortable showing directly to a client.

### [42:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=2557s) - Kirupa

Exactly, and I think the you know the amount of skills he might have needed historically to be able to pull that off might be different than what you might need in the future, where you know I mean I need to go to an advertising agency and spend many years to be able to do this. But it's going to be more of a you know what creates the right output. And I do sometimes worried that there's always a premium that people charge for higher quality experiences and so many Industries are built around that premium being charged.

If we make it easy for 80 percent premium to be created very quickly by anybody, will these industries survive on just a 20 being extra? Like how many clients will actually care that? You know I could pay X thousand dollars for this logo or I can pay ten dollars for this one and my target audience probably wouldn't know the difference between a logo design for this much and for this much. And that's an area where the speed at which so many Industries are being, you know, reconsidering, like how are they going to operate in the future?

I think that I haven't seen with other things in the past- Maybe electricity, but I was alive for that when electricity first came out. Yeah, no, that's fair. Yeah, we can go to the other section if you want. Yeah, it doesn't have a personalized UI, because that, to me, is the one that is always very interesting and I always spend a lot of time thinking about this because, you know, when dark mother Lifeboat came around, you're like, oh, wow, that's like, you know, a new level of customization. But then we also know that different people have different preferences for how they interact with content.

You know how they navigate and so on. Today it's very much fixed. You know, depending on, let's say, you're visiting a typical application, that application has a style that's been defined by their style guide, that's been defined or probably years and years of refinements from, like, usability studies and things like that, and we always know we're compromising at the end of the day. You know we're designing for a happy medium, like a middle, you know, group of people. They're going to be people on both extremes, you know, of varying sizes, who will not find the UI or find the interface usable or, you know, approachable.

A nice way where to find AI to be really exciting is that, just like we are actually creating prompts to be able to generate things. You know that, come with the output, we can maybe even dynamically generate content as part of a person's interactions that you know. Let's say that I'm zoomed in at, like you know, 200 or 300, like I'm in figma right- actually I mean 50 right now, but it wasn't like 20 earlier. Maybe all of my UI will adapt.

You know, this is almost like the intersection of, like the work that's often done in, like accessibility in these areas, but actually applying it more broadly to usability, where even people who might prefer a certain style of how to navigate their application will now be able to have the represented in their app. Because it's not predefined. It's all fluid that the AI kind of a system determines what the appropriate positioning and layout and sizing of things are, because it, you know, before it had to be like you predefined X number of templates. You pick and choose maybe which one is more appropriate.

Here, in a world where you can generate templates on the Fly, there are no constraints of that anymore.

### [45:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=2736s) - Chloe Barreau

Yeah, I know a number of startups that are exploring the space. And actually the use case you described for ads is a very lucrative one: being able to show images and text on the fly to someone who has different preferences. We haven't been able to generate photos on the fly like that before, and it would be really cool, maybe creepy but really cool, to do that.

### [46:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=2765s) - Kirupa

If I got a Shake Shack burger yesterday and I'm searching up burger shops today, it'd be great for not just the Shake Shack ad to come up, but for it to have a California background, right? Maybe with palm trees in the back, because it knows I'm in California, and that's something visual, not just tech-related, that they can play around with. Exactly. If it knows, for example, that you tend to prefer a specific color scheme, or you like a specific theme, like let's say you're into music. What if all the web pages you visit happened to have header images that were always music-themed?

You go to Instagram and the default banner in the background, or what you might like, could be musical instruments or a picture of an orchestra. You know, all these combinations. Imagine an entire experience of interacting with all of the interfaces, whether it's on your screen or on your thermostat or in all these various areas, being hyper-personalized to exactly what you like because it's all generated entirely on your preference. Yeah.

### [47:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=2831s) - Chloe Barreau

I think in some cases it's really cool to have that functionality and adaptability. In others, I do Wonder, like, where does branding come in right? Because one of the benefits of consistency is that people recognize or have a unified experience of what a company does and what their branding looks and feels like. And so to me that's kind of the tension. Do you want hyper personalization to give people like a really personalized touch, or do you, as the person providing the platform or the service, care more about how you're presented to the user if they're spot on? You know there's always a tension there between you, know.

### [47:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=2871s) - Kirupa

The first example I remember distinctly was there used to be a product called Winamp which was like an MP3 player that you could use like locally in a machine to play music, and it has idea of skins to make, actually personalize it on all these various formats. And I'm like, wow, there's like a very- you know it's very- big into, like you know, geometric kind of art, like you know, Mondrian kind of style, and so I had like a Winamp skin for exactly that's. Like you know, basically, MP3 player was very much blocky in that sword.

And then first, like Myspace, came out where the idea was when people are visiting your profile, it's really to see you and not the brand of Myspace itself, and so people personalize it all kinds of you know cool, often horrific ways as well, like black text, green blinking, you know backgrounds and Marquis. You know all the stereotypes have like really bad design was what was done, but that was okay because that's what the person wanted to Showcase about themselves. Whereas now you see, like you know, Facebook and so on, there's a very limited level of personalization.

The content that you post can be different, friend, but that interface is often displayed around, is very varied, but I wonder how much the technology that limits that kind of customization, because can you imagine unit testing like one million variations and like making sure that automation Works in? Accessibility works like all the various contrast guidelines? You need to operate around the world, all these things work. No longer matter because the system will automatically generate it. I wonder if that might unlock some interesting layers of creativity.

### [49:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=2951s) - Chloe Barreau

Yeah, yeah, no, I think you'll have, just like how the internet provided so much more data and so much more information, I think the same will happen with AI tools. You just get overwhelmed by the number of possibilities. In our example of making ads more personalized or platforms more personalized, it really is about curation and monitoring. Maybe that becomes what's important. If AI can generate a bunch of different options, maybe the human comes in and has to approve or adjust what looks good versus what doesn't, rather than creating the actual artifacts.

### [49:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=2992s) - Kirupa

Absolutely. And I think some industries will be more readily willing to accept and investigate some of these things, and others might be trickier. I always imagine the typical acronyms like B2B and B2C and consumer product and so on. I think consumer products will absolutely benefit from this personalization, whereas I can imagine more traditional B2B products where someone might say, I'm logging into my bank, I can't find the submit button anymore, what's going on?

You'd hope that it takes a 40 on the other side who can replicate your version of the app in a way that is repeatable, because for a lot of these organizations, every time you're stuck doing something is a huge loss. I can't imagine Bank of America, for example, giving each person a very dynamic UI, knowing there's no easy way to reproduce it. Mistakes in these areas could be hugely bad, like wiring money to the wrong person. Little things like that, where consistency might be the right thing, are going to make this a tricky area to navigate as well.

### [50:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=3053s) - Chloe Barreau

Oh yeah, I mean I can't imagine, like the customer support people, they'll be pulling their hair trying to work around, these kinds of tools.

### [51:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=3063s) - Kirupa

Well, Chloe, it's been fantastic talking to you about this like this, you know, to those people actually listening and not watching it and couldn't watch it, because this is one of those like interactive kind of things where there's a great figma file that Chloe created with all the various things to navigate through and kind of add visuals to the conversation that we're also having. And so, before you wrap up, you're currently, you know, studying HCI. What is your long-term goal?

You know what is, you know you got to think about what would ideal, you know, life and career be like you know, 10 years from now, if you work in this area. What do you think it's going to look like?

### [51:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=3095s) - Chloe Barreau

Oh,. I mean, I love startups. I think if I can work on a startup that's in this intersection- thinking about design and visual questions- with technology, that's the sweet spot for me.

### [51:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGh3P_A4r4&t=3110s) - Kirupa

Perfect, Chloe. Thank you so much. I'll talk to you in a bit.


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