War in Iraq

[Ryall]

I just gotta say this:

Although I am not a fan of Bush, nor of the American gov't stomping all over the world and doing as it pleases to protect its interests - infact I am very against all of these things. However if the American gov decides to destroy Sadaam and his arsenal (whether it is tactical or for "mass destruction"), I say SCREW HIM... he has done terrible things in history, in recent past, and undoubtedly will in the future, so well F-him. If it were another country, I may not agree with their selfish reasons for doing it, but I'd be happy the end result would be: Sadaam = no more.

I'm not trying to start a debate, but I see so often people bashing the "war for oil" and Bush (and I agree with that), but if someone wants to jack Sadaam, cool with me (obviously within reason, I'm not into supporting Hitler for the new Iraq dictator:P )

Just had to throw that out there.

Peace

[upuaut]

I suppose...

I guess it's kind of like the age old question: "If you could go back in time, to Hitler's crib, would you kill the infant?"

The problem is, with Sadam at least, that though you and I, and everyone else may agree that he's a dangerous madman, our Justice system is designed to not work against people who do not actually commit an act directly against us.

911 has yet to be linked to Iraq, and the only other thing we can hold against Sadam is that he's a cruel dictator.. one which we basicaly placed in position as well.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that War is not the issue I have with this situation. If it needs to be, it will, and I'm not going to stop it. (cause basicaly I feel the same way as you: if someone offs him, I aint going to shed a tear.) We as a people though MUST make our politicans accountable for stupidity. We the people MUST stop voting people into office who are willing to set up a dictator in a country just to gain some edge somewhere else in the world. In the end, WE'RE the ones that have to clean up the mess, and because it causes needless suffering, usually for something as fleeting as profit.

Get out there and vote people.. and for God's sake stop voting for the lesser of two evils. That doesn't work except to empower both the Democrates and the Republicans who have fed off of that free trough for too long.

Vote with esteeme, vote green!

or at least vote a write in for "none of the above" until a canidate with some integrity comes along. :P

[adrian]

Well I have to say. What a load of absolute crap!
It is for this exact reason that people like G.W Bush (or at least those that pull his stings) can get away with whatever they want.
This is just a regurgitation of all the mindless propaganda that the US administration has been peddling since Sep the 11th.
They do this for a few reasons, none of them are just.
What the U.S and its allies are doing in Iraq is a humanitarian disaster. The most conservative estimates show at least 600,000 Iraqi children have died from a direct result of embargo's which have done nothing to hurt Saddam and done everything to hurt innocent civilians. The Iraqi desert is contaminated with radioactive material. Depleted uranium from U.S weapons strew across much of the country and little to now effort to clean it up.
Further attacks on Iraq will do 3 things: Help satisfy the gluttonous greed for power and wealth of the American "Elite".
Kill, maim and displace tens of thousands of innocent Iraq's.
Promote extremism and further deepen the hatred of the U.S and all its western allies.

I find this type of action is morally apprehensible and counter productive. We cannot hope to counter the global trend towards extremism if we continue to act duplicitously, calling for an end to the killing of innocents, trying to claim the moral high ground, when the "western alliance" quite obviously is only interested in protecting our own allies regardless of the costs to other nationalities.

The September 11th incident was portrayed as the most horrific act in recent history. It killed a little over 2000 people. How would you explain that the parents of the 600,000 dead in Iraq?

It is time to stop making policy based on political gain and start showing that we have progressed past the age of racism, religious persecution and greed.



Anyone how tries to defend the actions of the US by claiming they are trying to do the world a favour by removing Saddam is either Lying or just a blithering idiot.

And for those blithering idiots out there how many innocent lives are you willing to spend removing a few guilty men from power? And after you answer that question would you swap those lives for your loved ones?



Get a grip America and open your eyes to the glaringly obvious.

This is not about the so called "Weapons of mass destruction" that Saddam is apparently developing, it is about the people in power staying in power and getting richer! Don't let them fool you, use your brain and THINK!!!

[Ryall]

adrain: boy did you miss the boat on my post!

[Ryall]

and you are aware of the fact that although iraq recieves food supplies he hoards it and in many cases resells it to other countries, right?

I dont support a war for oil, but I do support jacking sadaam so he is stopped from jacking people in that region.

David: well posted!

Peace

[adrian]

Ryall,
I will grant you that I may have over reacted. However.

Statements such as:
"However if the American Government decides to destroy Saddam and his arsenal (whether it is tactical or for "mass destruction"), I say SCREW HIM... "
and:
"I may not agree with their selfish reasons for doing it, but I'd be happy the end result would be: Saddam = no more."
are overlooking a impressively large problem.

To kill Saddam, you have to kill innocents, and lots and lots of innocents.
The US government may like to call it collateral damage but the fact remains that this act would be as horrific and "evil" as Saddam invading Kuwait.
The continued focus on removing Saddam by any means necessary, or even suggesting that it would be a good thing if the US does, is legitimising what the Bush admin is doing and condemning Iraqi Men, Women and children to death.
If I over reacted it is simply because I am so sick of people overlooking what will happen to the Iraqi's, or the Afghans civilian population when they react so explosively when one of their own dies!

So I may be in the wrong cabin but I am certainly on the right "boat"

[FirstClassJO]

"To kill Saddam, you have to kill innocents, and lots and lots of innocents.
The US government may like to call it collateral damage but the fact remains that this act would be as horrific and "evil" as Saddam invading Kuwait.
The continued focus on removing Saddam by any means necessary, or even suggesting that it would be a good thing if the US does, is legitimising what the Bush admin is doing and condemning Iraqi Men, Women and children to death.
If I over reacted it is simply because I am so sick of people overlooking what will happen to the Iraqi's, or the Afghans civilian population when they react so explosively when one of their own dies!"

Ok, to kill Saddam you DON'T have to kill innocents. Unfortunately, civilian casualties WILL occur because that's what happens in war. Innocents die. It's not like anyone wants that to happen. It just does.

While I understand and appreciate your compassion for the "innocents" in Iraq and Afghanistan, you have to understand there are plenty of innocents that have and will die if Saddam isn't taken care of. Of course September 11th probably has little connection, if any, to Saddam, but how much more vulnerable are we to attacks now that it's come and gone? If it's true that Saddam does have weapons of mass destruction, how do we know he won't use them? He's performed genocide on his fellow countrymen and the Kuwaiti's, how do we know he cares about the livelihood of innocents all over the world?

The fact is he is as much a threat to the US AND the World as anyone else, and to allow him to continue to thrive and rule over a nation that's starving for an honest direction would be a costly mistake.

[fester8542]

I agree,

War is not a pretty thing. It is no longer a whole mess of people gathering on a battlefield.

Iven if it were Sadam would choose to bring it to his city. His people mean as much to him as a used condom.

Unfortunealy his people are misguided by thier government controlled media and know America as an "evil" people who want thier oil.

If it was oil we were after we would have taken it a long time ago.

Compassion?

Where is YOUR compassion for the women in a nation that get treated like farm animals and executed for reading too many books.

I would give my life for this county any day minute or second.

If that means a stray bullet or two hits a civiian because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time so be it.

The security of this nation is at risk for every day that man is alive.

Lets do this.

[mjULTRA]

The fact is he is as much a threat to the US AND the World as anyone else, and to allow him to continue to thrive and rule over a nation that's starving for an honest direction would be a costly mistake.

I can think of another nation that is starving for an honest direction, and which poses the greatest threat to the entire world, including themsleves. When America turns into a war machine, we not only kill the enemy, we kill our own, by sending them off to die.

:cowboy: "America is like Jack Palance in the movie, Shane, throwing the pistol at the sheephearders feet. 'Pick it up'...."
- Bill Hicks

[morse]

I'm not sure anybody gets this... Don't you realize??? The only reason Bush even brought up the war in Iraq is to take the American mind off of the economy. Morons like Bush himself phuk things up all over the place, and then need jurastic measures to fix all the crap! It's bastards like Bush that will screw over the U.S., and that could mean bad thing for the world.

Just think...The former USSR had how many tens of thousands of nukes? Ok, and how much does a nuke cost? Lets jump on the high end for... 90 million, U.S. Easily affordable. Now if nuclear fission were possible without the use of radioactive isotopes, I would believe a 10-megaton bomb is what America needs! I am fortunate enough to live in a landlocked state... Why? The answer should be obvious. A pre-emptive attack on Iraq, or any part of the Middle East for that matter would just give them a good reason. Reason to float a nice Russian (or anybody's for that matter) nuke on a nice new motorboat into New York harbor or San Francisco (need I mention more?) and push the boom button.

While I think this is what the U.S. needs to open it's eyes, I would not favor the fallout results. Decay of atoms frightens me. And no, folks, this isn't just a dream. I know it feels like one, but it is more possible than you can imagine. My 8th grade history teacher just got re-commissioned into the Air Force ( :) no, I'm not in 8th grade). What does that tell you? Our teachers going off to fight? Something is happening, and it's not good. And the end result will be far worse.

But it all goes back to morons like Bush. He and that damn patriotic belief of peoples' are turning America into an Orwellian novel. Yet this time the barnyard is the world. With the congress in Republican hands, hold on to your butts. I'm sure Bush wont stop at anything to keep his personal image good.

The only way to possibly stop this is to start it. This generation of Americans (and boy do I hate being called an American these days...) will not stand to have their brothers and sons killed in war. If this does start, the only thing we can do is pray the rest of the American people get over their damn feeling of superiority... Open their eyes to what could really happen... And realize the stupidity of current authority.

[adrian]

To FirstClassJO and fester8542,

FirstClassJO: “Ok, to kill Saddam you DON'T have to kill innocents. Unfortunately, civilian casualties WILL occur because that's what happens in war. Innocents die. It's not like anyone wants that to happen. It just does.”

Thanks for picking me up on that, you certainly don’t have to HOWEVER, as you stated if the US does go to war which its leaders are obviously counting on “civilian casualties WILL occur because that's what happens in war” So we have my poorly worded comments sorted out.

Also:

“While I understand and appreciate your compassion for the "innocents" in Iraq and Afghanistan, you have to understand there are plenty of innocents that have and will die if Saddam isn't taken care of.”

Certainly! (Although not as many as if we do and for reasons somewhat of our making) I think something in Iraq as well as numerous other places in the world needs to be done. I think crippling third world debt needs to be cancelled, I think multinational corporations need to be held accountable, I think lots of things need to be changed but I don’t think you need to start a war to do them.

Think about it, if you really want to help the people of Iraq as you seem to be alluding to, do you really believe that War is the only or best way? Perhaps lifting sanctions would be a good start, perhaps demonstrating compassion, feeding, clothing, teaching, co-operating may be a start rather than strangling, depriving and killing!
Despite fester8542’s comments:
“If that means a stray bullet or two hits a civiian because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time so be it.”
(that to me seem to demonstrate he hasn’t been paying much attention to anything except his blind patriotism and Bush’s propaganda)
The UN estimates AT LEAST 200,000 people will be killed directly in indirectly if the war proceeds (quite a lot of stray bullets and people in the wrong place – THEIR COUNTRY!!).
So fester8542, perhaps I should be throwing back at YOU:
“Where is YOUR compassion” for what will happen to your “stray civilian”?
Just because I have enough sense to see that the pending war in Iraq will not liberate these people does not mean I don’t feel for their plight.
Perhaps you should direct some of that unbridled, over zealous enthusiasm
-“I would give my life for this county any day minute or second.” Stuff -
towards actually thinking so you can see that your country is not representing all you think it is. It represents wealth for the few, freedom for the rich, shelter by its golden mansions. It spreads lies, deceit and propaganda. It breeds corruption and greed. It feeds hate, fear and distrust.
Weapons of Mass destruction in Iraq are not a fact, they are an unknown possibility. What proof have you seen or heard? The Farcical Dossier document that has been slammed around the world for its fabricated theories and rhetoric? The reason the US has not released proof is it has none. If it did it would jump on it as an excuse for an immediate attack.

The security of the US is not at great risk from Iraq, but it is certainly fanning the fire of extremism with its militant attitude and disregard for human life. Hopefully sometime soon the rich and powerful will start to address the cause of unrest; inequality. And perhaps the tall poppy will not be cut down if it stops strangling and starving the rest of the field with its roots!

[fester8542]

Adrian,
I see your perspective, yet i do not agree with it.

Right, wrong, white, black, Militant Islam or Communist.

I never said civilian casualties were a good thing or I am for that.

I <b>am</b> for the forceful removal of a bloodthirsty tyrant. I would like to see his brain paraded around times square.

So go ahead call me a sheep, patriot or idiot. I love this rock and would defend it any second.

The great thing about this nation is the ability to have a discussion like this. If the tables were turned and we were in Iraq you would be dragged out of your home and your execution would be a public event.

Again I respect your outlook....

Were are just not on the same page.

Regards,


Matt

[FirstClassJO]

Originally posted by adrian
Certainly! (Although not as many as if we do and for reasons somewhat of our making) I think something in Iraq as well as numerous other places in the world needs to be done. I think crippling third world debt needs to be cancelled, I think multinational corporations need to be held accountable, I think lots of things need to be changed but I don’t think you need to start a war to do them.

Think about it, if you really want to help the people of Iraq as you seem to be alluding to, do you really believe that War is the only or best way? Perhaps lifting sanctions would be a good start, perhaps demonstrating compassion, feeding, clothing, teaching, co-operating may be a start rather than strangling, depriving and killing!

The problem with lifting sanctions and giving relief is that 9 out of 10 times it doesn't go into the hands it's intended for. Especially when a regime like Saddam's is in control. If they can control the media they way they do, there's no doubt they'll have a hand in how and where aid comes into.

I know it's a movie, but it's based on fact. Did you see Black Hawk Down? Remember the opening scene where the bad guys (I can't remember his name) entorage was shooting the people who were trying to get the red cross food? Imagine that happening in Iraq. There's unfortunately no clean way to control that, and I'm sure the last thing Saddam would agree to is having Americans distribute food and clothing without any sort of problems. He doesn't want his people to view Americans as good willed, helpful people. He wants them to hate Americans, because if they hate us, they will always look to him to try to defeat us.

Any rational, civilized human being would love to settle disputes peacefully, but this is one dispute I just cannot see settling any other way than forceful action. Saddam is a threat, even if our government motives are based on oil. Which is terrible by the way, but such is life I suppose.

[morse]

fester8542, your footer seems to disagree with mine... :)

[morse]

FirstClassJO, read what I posted on page 2. It's not about oil, it's about Bush's ego.

[morse]

http://www.geocities.com/h4xx02/bush2copy.txt
Don't believe everything you see on TV.

[FirstClassJO]

Originally posted by Phil Jayhan
First Class-

first of all, welcome from em and all the mods here @ kirupaVille.

where do you hail from and what is your purpose?

and lastly; what is your favorite color?

'none shall pass'
cheers~
pj :P

I'm from NH and my purpose is to get rich and lay many a beautiful woman. ;) I don't know. I came here because I want to learn how to use flash. hehe

Favorite color has to be blue.

[FirstClassJO]

Originally posted by Phil Jayhan
good enough for me..

although I am sure there could be formed, more nobler reasons, but like I said, good for me andit werks fer me too.

welcome man to KirupaVille. (located right next to Margartiaville)

cheers~
pj :P

Nobility (is that a word) is just another ploy to get laid. You act noble, girls take notice, therefore you get laid. :)

Btw, I'm sarcastic a lot so don't mind what I say most of the time. I'm just insane. :)

[fester8542]

Morse,

Your footer:

<b>"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."</b>

Was actually the inspiration behind adding

<b>"...and justince for all"</b>

to my footer :)


Plus its the best Metallica album

lol...I did it this moring

Glad you noticed

[FirstClassJO]

Originally posted by Phil Jayhan
Dear First Class,

i assume since your name is phirst class, that you care only about the welfare of others right?


cheers-
pj :(

I came up with First Class when I was in high school. It was my way of showing my ego and my desire to have "only the best."

I've grown up since then. And yeah, I do care about the welfare of others. Not to sound cocky, but I might be one of the sweetest guys you'll ever meet. That's what my friends all tell me, anyway. I'll let you decide if we ever talk. :)

[mjULTRA]

we want to know about geronimo's skull phil. you brought it up, and internet searches resulted in nothing. can you spill it please...

[morse]

nice, fester8542, sounds sweet to me!

[fester8542]

we want to know about geronimo's skull phil. you brought it up, and internet searches resulted in nothing. can you spill it please...

What Majeye said.....

SKULL! SKULL! SKULL! SKULL! SKULL! SKULL! SKULL! SKULL! SKULL!

[Makaveli]

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/nov2002/pres-n14.shtml

basically how the pentagon is controlling the media...just one of many examples that our mainstream media is controlled and not actually free press.... :(

The thing that makes me wonder is, after they "get" Sadaam...who will they go after next? Korea has stated they have nukes yet they are going after the state with oil first...i hate coming back to the oil but $$$ is what rules the world, i dunno makes me wonder...gotta keep questioning especially in this day and age :q: :q: :q: :q:

[Makaveli]

oh and those taht are thinking this is some nuts website think again! i got this from yahoo.com from their news section!
check this out! stunning...goes perfectlty with this topic
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/sep2002/iraq-s28.shtml

edit: W00t lookit this in article!! "The war now being prepared is aimed at conquering Iraq and establishing a US protectorate to rule that country and administer its oil wealth."

This quote is from an excerpt of a Washington Post article

[FirstClassJO]

Originally posted by MakaVeli_Da_DoN
oh and those taht are thinking this is some nuts website think again! i got this from yahoo.com from their news section!
check this out! stunning...goes perfectlty with this topic
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/sep2002/iraq-s28.shtml

edit: W00t lookit this in article!! "The war now being prepared is aimed at conquering Iraq and establishing a US protectorate to rule that country and administer its oil wealth."

This quote is from an excerpt of a Washington Post article

World Socialist Web Site? Um... No thanks.

[FirstClassJO]

Originally posted by Phil Jayhan
First Class-

Check out the meta tags on the world socialist site. They are definately socialists, but remember socialisim is not really any different than being a democrat.

**These concerns of your might have made sense in the days when private land ownership wasn't prohibited by 'inflated property taxes' in America, where they have actually started taxing the abiity to own property and not the property itself.

But reading a few articles is hardly going to hurt you, is it?

go on, check it out.

pj :P

I'm sure they have some good columns, but a viable news source they are not. That'd be like telling a Democrat/Socialist to get their news from the National Review or the Standard. :)

If there's actually anything I learned in college, it's to never use organizational websites as sources of information. Most of the time it's inaccurate and they drop your grade a lot if they see it in your references. :)

[mjULTRA]

i get my version of the truth from mass media. my sources are privately funded, so they have to be true, right? some dingbat with a website will never never ever have anything close to the truth unless he's paraphrasing USA today. I learned all this in my american classroom, with my american history book, taught by my underpaid american teacher. Under the control of a congress that can vote for its own pay raises.

Stories that shape our concept of reality are shoved in our faces daily by the mass media, but we're still suposed to think that propaganda is something that only nazi's use. Wake up and smell the cranial-KY, because america is being screwed in the mind daily. :x

http://members.aol.com/simple357/networklie.jpg

[Makaveli]

yea i agree, but what you are being fed by the mass media is pure propaganda and if you believe eveyrthing they say and dont question it you are being a fool, not you neccesarliy but a lot of people believe CNN is "the word of God" .....make sense? i simply hate how biased the major news channels are and now i only watch news channels like BBC who are muhc less biased....

[FirstClassJO]

Originally posted by MakaVeli_Da_DoN
yea i agree, but what you are being fed by the mass media is pure propaganda and if you believe eveyrthing they say and dont question it you are being a fool, not you neccesarliy but a lot of people believe CNN is "the word of God" .....make sense? i simply hate how biased the major news channels are and now i only watch news channels like BBC who are muhc less biased....

I completely agree with both you and majeye. It's so hard these days to find an honest, agenda-less, down the middle news report. Everyone wants to pipe in with their opinions.

[morse]

META NAME="Description" CONTENT="In the midst of the Bush administration's drumbeat for an invasion of Iraq, the government and the media have begun to prepare public opinion for a massive slaughter of innocent Iraqi civilians, as well as substantial American military casualties."
META NAME="Headline" CONTENT="US media begins preparing the public for mass slaughter in Iraq"

[Makaveli]

morse what are you getting at?! are we all simply sheep?! NO WAY!! Your A nUT i SAY A NUT! Back to Quake 3 arena and mindless but strangely addictive gaming!

[morse]

haha
::backs up::
"Don't look at me, I just stole that off of that socialist website"

[adrian]

fester8542,

It doesn't matter if you think civilian casualties are a good thing as you are still willing to sacrifice these people for an unknown quantity which shows how much value is placed on their lives.

I can agree to disagree but I will be interested to see what happens after all this has ended.

If the US does attack, after the bloodshed is over will you still be so concerned with the plight of the Iraqi's?

After proping up a dictator then cutting him down, with the country in chaos and ruin we will see how much the US is willing to spend of the victims it had so much to do with over the last 20 years. 10-1 it isn't as much as Bush will spend on getting re-elected.

[Makaveli]

yea i hope the voting machines dont "screw up" again...its amazing how it keeps happening *smirks*

[fester8542]

Adrian,
Again, we have a conflicting <b>opinion</b>. Like I said before, that’s cool with me. I respect your <b>opinion</b>.

For some reason you keep repeating yourself. Maybe if you regurgitate that same statement one or two more times you might change my <b>opinion</b>.

<b>OR </b>

maaaaaayyyyyybe you can accept the fact that I have an <b>opinion?</b>

Regards,

[as_clark20]

Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious

Oscar Wilde