Salvation - Is it in you?

[Jubba]

We've had this discussion Philbert :)

[lostinbeta]

I voted "None of the above, please explain your answer in your post without forcing debate."

My idea of after life is this.... Everything is made to help support the other. plants feed off of sunlight and soil, animals feed of plants and other animals (and people :evil: ), we feed off of other animals and plants also, well theres more detail to it, but I am not going to get into that.

Back to my point. I think we die, get buried, return to the soil which houses the plants, which feeds the animals, which feeds the people and then the cycle continues. I believe that the afterlife we have is continuing life on this planet so future generations of animals and people can survive.

It may sound corny, but part of me is strongly influenced by native american culture as my mom "is" native american (she can't prove it, but it is something we don't need to prove to ourselves).

[lostinbeta]

No problem. I bet you I am the only one here that believes that though:)

I am interested in seeing how other people think too. I don't think I was around when this subject was first started.

[reverendflash]

When I saw "no arguments" I couldn't resist stating my opinion...

I personally think that the belief in an afterlife was invented so that people would treat each other in a socially acceptable way. Not a bad idea for its time.

It's the zealots that feel that their salvation depends on how effective they are in converting people who haven't accepted their path that have caused most of my search for truth.

Just my opinion...I respect all beliefs...Peace and Love to all...

Rev:elderly:

[upuaut]

I voted "none of the above" (of course Phil and I have discussed this already)....

...soul is one, matter is one, mind is one, all points are one, all time is one. Hell is real for those who believe in it.

When the time comes, I will be one again, with the beginning and the end, the alpha and omega. I will know all things and be all things at once. When that occures I will reinitiate my soul into matter again and start a second learning cycle. (I have no illusions that I am near enlightenment in this incarnation)

Lostinbeta ~ of course others believe what you believe. You're belief is my logical first presumption. Given the lack of intellectual existance at the point of death in your system, I choose the budhist reincarnation method as a second possible, though less likely existance. I too have many Native American beliefs mixed into my own. They were a truely enlightened culture in my eyes.

[lostinbeta]

Yes, I forgot to mention I do highly believe in souls and spirits. I don't just think you die and that is the end of you. I believe your spirit lives on.

Very interesting beliefs david. I too sometimes believe in reincarnation, but other times I don't, strange really, my mind wanders around too much.

[eilsoe]

I have a high belief in spirits and other realms and such too... Very high believer in the capabilities of the human mind, that we do not know of yet... or haven't practised ourselves...

Although I have a hard time believing in God himself... mostly 'cause the bible doesn't say a thing about dinosaurs, and we have solid proof they existed...

I dunno what th universe is, is it one big coincidence? Or what? Is there more to it than our universe? What are we missing here?


Anyway, I believe in some greater force that watches over us, but not one all mighty God...

[eilsoe]

It's hard not to start a discussion here... :)

[bit-101]

there are other ideas than the judeo-christian heaven/hell and "no afterlife". reincarnation for example. i believe there is a spiritual life force in all of us. i don't think it goes off to a remote heaven or hell, nor do i believe it just ceases to exist. exactly what it does, i don't exactly know, exactly. probably continues its activity of animating life forms. kind of a very loose reincarnation type believe i guess.

[Ryall]

I believe in an ever precent life-force, or the cycle of everything together... very much influenced by Buhddist teachings, as well as many native tribes - not just native american, as you look at other cultures that survive off the land they tend to have similar beliefs too. The connectedness of everything and life as a sacrid force. How far all this goes into the divine... well that is something that I am often changing my mind on. Something that I believe in as a sort of maxium (something that should always hold true and be followed) is Peace, Love, Unity, and Respect for all people and things.

Good Poll by the way!

Oh and dosen't a dinosaur walking around 4500 years ago conflict with current theories by like 60 million years? :cowboy:

Peace

[upuaut]

Well.. they just found a creature in China a few years ago which was thought extinct for hundred's of thousands of years (or is it millions. I can't remember) likewise, Sharks, Whales, Crocodiles, Aligators, and even the birds themselves are out of that age of Terra. It's is entirely possible that a dinosaur could have continued to live and breed in isolated places on the planet. Likewise we are continualy reivaluating the age in which we believe all this to have occured. We continue to find evidence of man further and further back from when we thought it possible.

All things are possible when it comes to life and the Universe. As I've said to Phil in the past.. there's no way to prove that the entire Universe was not created twelve seconds ago, completely in tact and as we see it. All things are possible.

probable.. now that's another story of course... and one I wont touch on this board.

[upuaut]

Sorry phil.. but you know me. I have to counter.


Yes, the theory of dinosaurs 4500 years ago dumfounds everything we have all been taught. But nonetheless it is truth.
Nope. What you're saying is just a theory as well.. and STILL from what I've seen a less likely theory than the established one, despite all the holes which exist (and which I might add, most true scientists will admit exist as well)


I can also direct you to books that show human footprints along with dinosuars that have been claimed to be extinct for 'millions' of years.
Except that these prints as they exist have other explinations which you are failing to read about. The footprints have been found in other places besides those mentioned in any book I've read, as isolated scientificaly recreatable object lessons. Sometimes things look like one thing, but are not. And yes.. I've been keenly aware of, interested in, and studied said foot prints for over 5 years now. I am not as convinced as you are.


Fact. Job described seeing a brontosaurous or an alliousaur or something of that family and order. With reasonable minds there is no doubt as to what he is describing. Is all I can say is that all you have been led to believe about dinosaurs is false. They are a most recent animal and certainly have not been extinct for millions of years. This is a lie the evolutionists want you to believe. Does this make you curious to know more? Let me know and I will gladly post more...By request only....
nice of you to say that it's a lie when you don't have real proof of it. We've discussed this over at your site Phil and I have yet to get any satisfactory reply about my last post. Namely, give me an example of ANY proof that you have and I will find a counter proof.
You can't simply call people liars Phil without some sort of accountability.. at least not if you want to be taken seriously with your theories.

I really doubt that I should even be taking this conversation this far here on Kirupa. I suggest that anyone who wishes to follow these threads and approach these subjects do so over at Phil's forum. It's a much more appropriate place for such things. In addition, the ezboard KIR (I believe it's called Zetica now) is the opposition's view on these subjects. If you'd like to see how both sides argue, I'd suggest both of those sites.. if you still need more arguements then I will be happy to provide links to sites by Email only, to locations where such things are discussed.

[upuaut]

lol.. yes.. but by saying something is fact you ARE making a false statement, even if you have 'proof'.


As far as the dino's are concerned, it is indeed proof for me. Yet, as you wish, I can substantiate anything I have said with written evidences amongst reasonable minds.

see.. I find this kind of thing to be presumptuous and insulting (even if I know that you don't mean it that way) You're stating that anyone who disagrees with your findings is not a reasonable person. Being a very reasonable person in almost all cases, that simply doesn't jive with me.

As for the research issue, you're just plain wrong Phil. If you wish to make an arguement, the idea that "I'm not doing other people's research for them" doesn't hold watter. YOU are making an arguement, YOU provide the proofs, or you don't make the arguement. If you do, then you're just another Art Bell... a perveyor of half truths and miscalculated arguements. AND you are bound to fail in what you are attempting... namely to convince another of your theories. It IS your job to do the research for others if you want to convince someone of anything. Now I'm not talking about doing your own carbon dating to prove that the system we use is inaccurate. You may not have any skills in using radio isotopes in this way.. but the research into other people's findings on the subject is most certainly necessary.

I could say that there is definitive proof that a creature, alien to man, arrived here several million years ago and seeded our planet with the possibility of life, and in turn created the first image of man on earth. This FACT is well established and proved.. the research information is out there if you simply look in the right place.

Just because I said that doesn't make it real, and it doesn't make me any great thinker. It doesn't make the arguements pro or con, any stronger and it does not inspire anyone to bother looking for the details. Perhaps you are correct in that it is not your job to do the research.. but it IS your job, if you want to convince anyone of anything, to inspire someone to look for that research. I'm sorry.. but I just don't find you to inspire me in that direction.

In addition, and in closing, I've told you before Phil.. I have spent over 14 years now looking into these theories. I have some wild ones of my own. I HAVE done the research. I'm not here to tell you that you are wrong or right, but as a friend of yours (which I do consider myself) it is my job to tell you that your theories as I've seen them so far are not convincing to a reasonable mind. You'll have to do better than that if you want people to bother looking for this information. I will say though that my own time spent researching information like this (esoteric) has been very fulfilling to me. I have learned things that I never would have encountered unless I was looking where the establishment told me not to bother looking. I think that everyone should look at and explore ancient cultures, history, and the holes in the theories that are spoon fed to us here in American schooling. The establishment DOES lie to us. That I can prove (beyond any reasonable doubt ;) ). If you don't like being lied to, as believe most people don't, I recomend picking up "Lie's my teacher told me" to start with. If that doesn't convince you to at least EXPLORE the possibility that the established "line" is a load of crap.. I don't know what will.

I do believe in Ocham's razor Phil. I believe it works. I suggest you use it on your own arguements before others do. It will help you to formulate convincing statements.

[bit-101]

dinosaurs? i thought this was about salvation?

[Jubba]

For some reason, everytime Phil and David begin a discussion about salvation, it ends up going to Evolution, and therefore dinosaurs. If you want interesting converstation check out the Corpus T Forums (http://pub83.ezboard.com/bcorpustforums) or More specifically, Discussions on Evolution and Salvation (http://pub83.ezboard.com/fcorpustforumsfrm6) The threads "What are they, where do they come from and what do they want?" and "General Discussion -- Evolution vs. Creation" are filled with debates between Phil, David and myself and other random people that popped in from time to time.

Phil: Speaking of CorpusT, how is it going? (casually trying to change the subject....) Play nice with David, at least on this Forum...CorpusT is controversial anyway :P

David: Play nice with Phil, we all know where this road leads... Try to not take offense, I know what you mean when Phil says things are FACT, that irks me too



originally posted by ME at CorpusT Forums...
I actually agree with Uppy. And I'm glad that someone supports me on the whole 'differentiation of the sexes' thing. Also, the Polonium Halos...They are imbedded in Mica, an ignious rock, formed by the heating and cooling of magma...however, if there were an eruption of some sort and the Mica was thrown into a body or water, and it instantaneously solidified...the Polonium would be stuck inside, and thus the halos would be formed and would stay there...

The only thing that really annoys me, is that you are trying to say that things are solid fact, when really all you have is what some other people say and your own speculation. And it seems that the majority of your speculation is formed by your faith in your religion...

Eh, to each his own...


I really need to get some free time so I can join back in the discussion on CorpusT (or start it up again) because I miss conversing with you boys. David, sometime over this Summer, I may be driving down in your area, if I do I'll let you know and I'll swing in for some good food :)

Phil (again): I lost your address and I still have to send you that book. Could you e-mail me your address again? and i'll send that book out by the end of the week... Jubba's Email (jubba@livetoskateboard.com)


Cheers,
Jubs http://www.kirupa.com/forums/smileys_files/bonk.gif

[bit-101]

so....if dinosaurs were around 4500 years ago, that would prove....?

[upuaut]

Well.. I was pretty much off my rocker last night anyway. I was having all sorts of frustration at work and it was carrying over onto my online conversations.

As was said.. if we want to argue these fine points it should be done at CorpusT.

I still stand behind the idea that any arguement you make, even ones I agree with, I can provide good, solid counter arguements for. :)

[upuaut]

beer??!! blah.. alcohol is terrible for you (this coming from a smoker :P)

[bcogswell11]

I'm going to participate here even though it seems the thread is starting to get off topic. (LOL funny how everybody here, including me, always does that. Everyone just has so much to say!) Anyways, I'm sixteen, and growing up in a Christian household. My family and I probably go to church 2 sundays out of a month. I've always been taught the Bible, and about how when you die, if you have accepted God into your heart, then you will sit in the kingdom of heaven. If you live a life of sin, you will spend eternity in hell. A couple years ago, a science class of mine studied the beginnings of the earth, and all of the evidence that humans came from apes.

Wait? Look in the Bible! It says right there that God created man! Although I wasn't too religious then, and still now, I wondered if that part of the Bible was wrong (if I took the evidence from class seriously) then how much of it was?

Since then, I've always had doubts about God and especially what happens after death. I fully believe there is a God, and I also believe in heaven and hell. But, I haven't actually studied and wanted to learn more about spirituality, and I don't really understand why I don't. Listening to what all of you talk about though is very enlightening though, and perhaps I will start looking more into it soon.

Oh well, for the poll I checked:
Christ died for my sins, so therfore I am assured safe passage through death and will be welcomed into heaven because of this

-brad-

[upuaut]

Hey brad.. didn't know you were so young. I guess I should pay more attention. :P

It's good to see so many who do keep the faith. I personaly don't expect many people to follow my path.. my path is my own and no one elses.. but it is nice to know that people so young have a path and that it leads them down the road to being good people.

As for the genesis accounts.. well as I said to Phil, you'll always have people on both sides of the fence (and I a few like me who are outside both fenced area) I wouldn't worry too much about the proofs of either arguement. It isn't really important if you believe the account to be reality or metaphoric.. I'm sure that God, in his infinite wisdom would not trouble himself so over petty details.. actions are what is truely important to both your fellow man, and to God.

besides it sounds like you attend church more often than the average person who claims Christ as his savior.

[bcogswell11]

David - Yeah I do try to hide my age on boards and interactions. Everywhere else on the internet I was born in 1980.:) I think people see young age as inexperience sometimes, and look down on that. I figure if we are all here learning and having fun with flash and the members of the board, age isn't important.

Although I do go to church, I don't think I go as willingly as I should. I don't enjoy church too much, but we do have a good pastor.

Phil -

"To not fear Death is the greatest blessing of all. Just the knowledge that I am saved form the future eternal separation of God and sinners and will not be amonsgt those who perish is the greatest gift of all. A clear conscience and a life free of guilt. To know God is to believe the message of Gods unspeakable gift, Christ. And all that all of this of course implies."

That's a great point. And although one of the greates blessings of all, I think it is very difficult (for me at least) to have 100% belief that I will go to heaven. There are those passages in the Bibly where Jesus says to people that ask for eternal life and say they have been good. Jesus says give all of your earthly possessions to the poor, and then, and only the will you have eternal life. I can't live up to that standard, and sometimes have a little doubt about what if those passages are correctly telling what it takes to get to heaven.

-brad-:cowboy:

[lostinbeta]

My dad used to make us go to churce every Easter (yes, that was the only time) and I hated it. All it was was sit...stand....sit....stand....sit....stand...sit. ..stand.

It got really annoying, not to mention I was never really interested in the first place. Well we stopped going after one year our reverend talked about how the easter bunny was fake and how kids shouldn't believe in it. My dad was furious with it and he refused to let us go back there for Easter after that (woo hoo!)

Now the only time I can be found in church is if it is some family thing like a wedding, funeral, or memorial of some sort.

Brad: Young age is sometimes frowned upon. Sometimes it is for good reason, other times for not. Just another example of how unfair the world can be I suppose :-\

[upuaut]

just a thought for people to mull over. Athiests are the only ones who are truely free from fear of death. If you're a Christian or a Budhist or whatever you will always have the underlying possibility that you wont go to heaven/reach nirvana/etc. Atheism, as faiths go, states a lack of existance post mortem. Some people, not understanding the nature of this are really fearful.. I look at it this way. If you don't exist, you simply wont know it. If you wont know it then you shouldn't fear it... that's just silly.

[bcogswell11]

LOL LostibBeta, both good points.

For the second one, I feel that in communites like these, unless a younger one is speaking out of inexperience, then age shouldn't matter. For me, I'm trying to get a jump on a career in multimedia, and having a hell of a time doing it. It shouldn't matter what mine, or anyone else's age is.

-brad-:cowboy:

[lostinbeta]

Well I always assumed death was like sleeping. You never notice when you are asleep, it is when you wake up that you realize it. It is almost as if you forget you exist when you sleep because your body shuts down everything except what it needs to survive, so technically your body "kills" itself for a couple of hours.

Another one of my crazy beliefs :crazy:

I don't even know what I am. I can't be aethiest because sometimes I tend to believe in reincarnation, and aethiests don't believe in anything.

My main idea on what happens after you die is that you become fertalizer for the plants (crudely put, you will have to read my first post on the first page of this thread to see what I mean).

Brad: In a community to learn, age doesn't matter. You are here to learn, if you have the ability to grasp the knowledge you are given here, then you are old enough to handle it, that is all that matters.

[bcogswell11]

Haha I have one of those crazy beliefs. A theory I came up with a while ago. It's too long and too **** confusing though. It's hard for me to put it into words, but if you've read Michael Chrichton's The Andromeda Strain, I beleive a part of it is mentioned in there as "the butterfly effect"

-brad-:cowboy:

[lostinbeta]

Yes, I actually do know of the butterfly effect.

Isn't that the theory where 1 tiny event causes a change in any other event? Like me doing something here, can change something that happens in Canada? (I think it was explained to me as a bird flapping its wings here can build up enough amplitude to cause a tornado on the other side of the globe or something, I know it is a chaos theory of some sort)

Not sure, I have heard of it, just not sure if I am getting my "effects" mixed up. I know of a couple "effects"

[reverendflash]

Let us not forget Shirley McClaine, and her golden thread theory...:nerd:

peace from whatever sources :ninja:

David: I agree with your statement 100% in regards to freedom. keep the faith :cowboy:

Rev:elderly:

[bcogswell11]

Haha yes, that is it. Basically, it goes a butterfly in a forest shutters his wings to the left, insead of the the right, which in turn causes a chain of events that can lead to devastating effects for the world.

My version applies to everyday life. You are sitting at your desk right now, you look at your hands and move one an inch. Just by doing that, your hands are not in the same place as they were if you didn't move your hands, and throughout the rest of your life, all of your interactions will be changed, some worse, and some better, because you moved your hand an inch.

It's confusing as hell when I try to explain it, but yap, that's it.

-brad-:cowboy:

[lostinbeta]

No, I completely understand. I understand because I had that same theory when I was growing up. I was a very deep thinking kid for some reason.

I started believing in the ripple effect (still do) and I got into other effects. The butterfly effect is an interesting concept that I used to believe in, I can't say I fully do anymore, but there are parts of the theory I believe in.

[kirupa]

I know this is completely off-topic, but this reminds me of one of the Simpson's Halloween episodes where Homer tries to fix his toaster and is teleported back in time. He sneezes and sets of a chain reaction that has a negative impact on the whole world. I think him killing a mosquito also caused that problem =)

Cheers!
Kirupa :P

[Jubba]

Phil: No I wasn't framed for anything, and no girlfriend either, but just to point out, the existence of dinosaurs 4500 years ago, wouldn't change anything that has to do with Archaeology. Paleontology, which is the study of prehistoric life by the evidence of fossils and remains would suffer greatly. But again, Phil by all evidence that can't be.

Ok, I'm not going to get into this here. Anyway...Archaeology would not suffer, trust me on that one, it is my field of study. Archaeologists have nothing (NOTHING) to do with dinosaurs. Unless, we happen to find one on an archaeological site, and the number of times that has happened...ZERO, because they were extinct. :)

[bit-101]

the dinosaur thing would change a lot scientifically, but not much for me spiritually.

i guess if anything, my beliefs tend toward buddhism or taoism.

after 37 years and several religious affiliations, i decided i need to chill out and step back and take a look at things. the problem (for me) of being part of a "religion" is that you start viewing everythign from the point of view of that set of religious beliefs, either little by little, or all at once. maybe there were some things you agreed with in the beginning, but soon it becomes a filter for everything. i needed to break away from it all and discover what *I* believe, not what *WE* believe.

[Jubba]

Well culturally it would mean that evolution is whacked, but there is no evidence for it. The only evidence that Phil presents can be disputted, and I'm sure I can counter with enough evidence. The only thing that really annoys me is that Phil says, "This is what happened" Instead of, "This is what I think/believe"

Phil: There is no way to know for sure. You believe in the book. I believe in the evidence that I have seen. Yes there is much evidence that I haven't, seeing that I am only 19 years old, and there is much of the world that I have not seen and there is much of it that I will never see. However, the evidence that I have seen is more than enough for me to conclude that Evolution is not bogus. As a scientist, as an archaeologist, this is what I believe. I am not saying that I am right, I am just saying that this is what I put my faith in.

I believe that Dinosaurs lived and breathed millions of years ago, and that they died for some unknown reason. I believe that man decended from monkeys decended from rodents decended from reptiles decended from fish decended from microorganisms. Evolution and science are my religion. I believe that the dinosaurs died long before modern man was 'created' or had evolved fully, because if not then there would be evidence for it. There would be human bones mixed in with Dinosaur bones, or there would be dinosaur bones in a Hohokam trashpit. The remains of Australopithecus would be found with dinosaur bones. The Clovis people would be hunting a Pentaceratops instead of Mammoths. And the evidence would prove this.

I keep an open mind, and if I ever see an completely obvious sign that there is a god, then I'd drop down and praise him for all the sins that I have committed against him. But since there is no sign of that I can't believe. I need proof, I need evidence, and the only concept that has given me what I need, is Science.

I am no longer participating in this discussion on Kirupa's forums. This will be my last post in this thread. Once I get done with midterms I might start up again on your forum Phil. :)

Cheers,
Jubbs :cowboy:

[dexa_007]

... Where's the checkbox for "I'm going to heaven because I've accepted Jesus Christ's free offer for salvation" ??? Mark me down for that one. :rambo: Now, "acceptance" is the pivotal term here, but that's another topic. :hat:

Peace!

Jeff

[dexa_007]

Phil ...

But #4's incomplete. The offer needs to be ACCEPTED.

J

[dexa_007]

Jesus knows your heart. Judgment occurs there.

Believing = acceptance ... AND ... acceptance = believing

It's deeper than the simple equation, yet even more simple. :goatee:

j