New WTC Plans - Freedom Tower - To Be Worlds Tallest Bulding

[fester8542]

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/US/Northeast/12/19/wtc.plan/story.new.design.2.ap.jpg


NEW YORK (CNN) -- The Freedom Tower to be built at the site of the devastated World Trade Center in Lower Manhattan is still planned as the world's tallest building, according to a revised model unveiled Friday by the architects collaborating on its design.

THE REST OF THE ARTICLE:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/12/19/wtc.plan/index.html

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Its being planned at 1,776 feet. The year we signed the declaration of Independance. How balls is that?!

Its looks incredible.

[fez]

oh thats balls alright

[SureShot]

wow - that is amazing!


But My CN Tower will kick the *** of your Freedom Tower! :)



I wonder if they will server freedom fries in there as well?

[c!rYx]

who could ever do stuff like this except of the US....

[fester8542]

Originally posted by c!rYx
who could ever do stuff like this except of the US....

c!rYx,
You dont think its cool that we rebuild the towers as a tribute to the ones lost as well as American people?

I guess I just dont understand your beef with it :h:

[asphaltcowboy]

ok.. this has to be a joke right? right?

[c!rYx]

no, I really understand that you build a tower as a tribute, but I think the 1,776 feet stuff is a little to much..... but well

[fester8542]

I suppose if you were an American you would understand. Its very important to us. Hence that big holiday we celebrate every year on July 4th?

[asphaltcowboy]

No no, what I don't get is.. They're planning on building a building on the spot where the previous huge building was destroyed in the most violent and destructive way possible, that's even taller than the previous one..

for real?

[fester8542]

So you suggest we put a little stone monument with the names of the victims or something of the like? That my friend is succumbing to terrorism. Being afraid of some dirty-bearded bomb wielding bastard. That is certainly not the way of the American people my friend. Standing up to and destroying our enemies is what we do. And we are friggin good at it too. Not inviting them over to the white house for some tea and crumpets to make a deal.

I say throw up the tower. Come and get it Osama. Sooner or later we are going to find you and beat you so hard you going to be shatting teeth for a month. Then execute your goofy arse on pay-per view.

[asphaltcowboy]

ok.. well.. is it plane-proof?

[Yeldarb]

does it need to be....?
You don't honestly think that if "they" "decide" to take it down they're going to do it the same way again do you?

[asphaltcowboy]

*shrugs* I dunno.. worked last time didn't it?
dunno bout you lot - just seems a bit thick to me.

"once bitten, twice shy" or "once bitten, let's push our luck again"?

[c!rYx]

'is it plane-proof' :D

[asphaltcowboy]

Originally posted by c!rYx
'is it plane-proof' :D ;)

[Yeldarb]

im for pushing our luck again and kicking their *** harder next time if they try anything funny. do you think we should just stop building skyscrapers altogether?

[asphaltcowboy]

pretty much. or ditch aeroplanes :P

[asphaltcowboy]

Originally posted by Yeldarb
im for pushing our luck again and kicking their *** harder next time if they try anything funny.oh right, so it's ok to risk another 2500-3000 people's lives.. in the hope they won't try anything again? That's just asking for trouble.. It's not even like you really kicked their arses the first time anyway.. not like you've actually caught Bin Laden, or really sorted out the problems in Afghanistan, or destroyed Al Quaeda.. :sure:

[fester8542]

Originally posted by asphaltcowboy
pretty much. or ditch aeroplanes :P

So your saying you would rather wuss out in so many words?

I dont know guy.:flower:

[asphaltcowboy]

Not really a case of wussing out is it? It's what I like to refer to as 'common sense'. Sure, building a bigger, flashier, more expensive building will help repair damaged pride, but to me it just seems a bit stupid to do it before you've caught the people that did it originally.. why take the risk? If there's the possiblity it will happen again.. are you honestly willing to risk people's lives.. again?

would you say different if your new job posting was in that building.. near the top floor? or even family member? worth the risk?

[fester8542]

Yes it is a case of wussing out. Common sense or placing a band-aid on pride has to do with the practicality of replacing 10 million square feet of office space in New York city. In case you haven't looked at an aerial photo latey...psst if kind of full at he moment.

Regarding catching and completely wiping out Al-Queda; we have toppled the regime that safely harbored them, destroyed thier training camps for new recruits, cut off significant funding to the organization and forced them to the mountainous region of Pakistan which we are not allowed to enter even though they=Pakisan claim to be our allies.

This type of war is not like lining up battalions of soldiers on a battlefield. We are fighting insignificant pockets of resistance that when brought together can create a descent size wave of destruction. Currently I do not believe they have the resources to mimic the events on September 11, 2001. Therefore I do not feel that this remarkable structure that is in tribute to the American people and its fallen victims to terrorism is in your words "stupid"

I would be honored to have a family member or myself work in that building. Jesus, put me on the roof for gods sake.

[Yeldarb]

if they dont like it, they don't have to work there. you run a risk when you walk accross the street, that's life.

[asphaltcowboy]

:sure:

[fez]

Regarding catching and completely wiping out Al-Queda; we have toppled the regime that safely harbored them, destroyed thier training camps for new recruits, cut off significant funding to the organization and forced them to the mountainous region of Pakistan

right..but how many other lives were lost in the process? i mean, an eye for an eye is all fine but an arm and two legs for an eye? i dunno.

but i do like toweres. when you get to the top they make you all giddy.

[asphaltcowboy]

towers are indeed fun.

[fez]

yea they make you giddy right?

[fester8542]

Originally posted by fez
right..but how many other lives were lost in the process? i mean, an eye for an eye is all fine but an arm and two legs for an eye? i dunno.

but i do like toweres. when you get to the top they make you all giddy.

Exactly!

An eye for a leg, arm, eye and your friggin sisters brain on my living room shelf is perfectly fine with me.

Throw a rock at a bee expect to get stung.

Throw a rock at a bee hive and expect to get brutally F!cking mangled.

[Marz]

*lmao*.... Man... Such hostility lately guys...

If it looks cool.. It looks cool... :beer:

[rere420]

It definetly looks cool but..it is more then just cool

Something that can bring tears to your eyes just by seeing the potential plans of it because you think of what that day was like and the people that you know that were lost and the families that do not want to just forget....(just forgetting would be putting a small little plaque on the ground that no-one would clean after a few years and walk on everyday)....we will never be walked on...screw with us and we will be bigger and better and we wont forget...if you think it is a crappy attitude to have...dont reap the benefits and move! JMO!

this isnt being addresses towards anywere here, just incase someone takes offense...its just something I want to get off my chest.

I think it looks amazing and I cant wait for it to go up:)

[asphaltcowboy]

Originally posted by rere420
screw with us and we will be bigger and better yeah.. minus the 2,752 people who were killed in attack :-\

[BadMagick]

Originally posted by asphaltcowboy
yeah.. minus the 2,752 people who were killed in attack :-\ Har har! That's where you're wrong my friend.

As Lee Corso of ESPN College Gameday would say - NOT SO FAST!

America is not 'minus' those people who were killed in the attacks of September 11 - not in the least.

We remember them still today. We hold them close to us as if they were alive still - and this new planned building is a way of raising them up above all else.

All the fallen firefighters, policemen, and curageous people who lost their lives, and those who helped in the cleanup effort, those who got their lives back on track ... that building shows the world the character each one of them had/has.

I'm all for this idea. And in case you didn't know - we still have air force fighters flying CAP missions over New York City. You might not see them all the time, but they're there. A plane attack would not work again - never in a million years

[asphaltcowboy]

Originally posted by BadMagick
A plane attack would not work again - never in a million years what are they gonna do? build a fence round it? :P

[asphaltcowboy]

btw, the Petronas Towers are awesome Phil :P :thumb:

[APDesign]

I would like to point out that not all Americans are as incredibly lame as some of these posts have made it seem. We aren't all macho egotistical "We're bigger and badder" right wing freaks aching for war. We don't all want to "kick ***" and believe that the war on Iraq was justified (in direct relationship to 9/11, that is.) I just thought it was important to bring that up, since I'm almost ashamed to be an American sometimes. Now you can all kill me for being "unpatriotic."

[paradox244]

the media, and the american attitude, are the only things that make this tragedy stand out from all the other tragedies in the world. For instance the Jiangya Shipwreck in 1948, in china killed 2353 people and they didnt build anything at all for those people. Very few people even know it happened, I think the new building will not only help replace the thousands of square feet of needed office space, it will also serve as a way for everyone to remember the people lost. A minor side effect is the creation of many many jobs, and a new tourist attraction to help out the economy.

[mjULTRA]

Cool Looking Building.. kinda like a big middle-finger to wave at the accused...

..And incorporating significant numbers into the dimensions of structures is not a new thing, by any means... take for example, the dimensions of the Egyptian Pyramids, and the insane amount of knowledge that is coded within the structures actual measurements... wow.. is it going to be a Trade Center?? Is Rockafeller going to fund this too??

[prstudio]

Can't wait! Itsa looking mighty fine.

[DariusMonsef]

I get a icky feeling all through my body with stuf like this. I'm American. I love my country. I feel pride in the fact that I can say I think my president has his head in his arse.

I think having a monument to those lost is fitting, but when you go a little too far with the ploys at peoples emotions then I feel like I'm getting manipulated.

For example, when Dale Ernhart (sp?) died there were tons of tribute songs that came out on the radio. One example was The Dance by Garth Brooks. In between the moving lyrics and music were radio captions relating to Dale. That song was created to make you feel an emotion. It was an emotional event in itself, why need to create this hyper marketed thing to bring more emotions?

Just build suitable office and living space with the most economic uses. And put a nice park in as a memorial or something.

I agree that sometimes I'm ashamed to be American.

[asphaltcowboy]

Exactly. :)

[kirupa]

The proposed plan does look excellent. I wouldn't want to have a silly little plaque visible only to people nearby. I think it will be both symbolic and economically practical to have a taller building there, and I wouldn't mind having to work in one of the top floors - I mean, people aren't safe really anywhere, and hundreds and thousands of people work in tall buildings every day. This is like telling everyone to stop flying because planes.

I don't particulary fear the envitable, nor do I fear what may not happen. Life is too short to voluntarily choose to be cuddled up in the first floor of one of those buildings ;P

[c!rYx]

I'm American. I love my country. I feel pride in the fact that I can say I think my president has his head in his arse.

That's right :bounce: but it always makes me think to what this world came down in the last years. If it will go on like this, I think our all life won't be as nice as we may hope...

[DariusMonsef]

c!rYx,

I'm not sure exactly what you are saying? Are you saying you don't think life will be as nice as we hope if we don't like our president?

[c!rYx]

no, I think it won't be that nice with this President.... or better, with his foreign politics

[mlk]

So you suggest we put a little stone monument with the names of the victims or something of the like? That my friend is succumbing to terrorism. Being afraid of some dirty-bearded bomb wielding bastard. That is certainly not the way of the American people my friend. Standing up to and destroying our enemies is what we do. And we are friggin good at it too. Not inviting them over to the white house for some tea and crumpets to make a deal.

'Standing up to and destroying our enemies is what we do'. . Yup, in a bashing an unthought way. And are you saying that the wars in Irak and Afghanistan are successes ?

About that building... I guess they ought to do it, just to reinstore american pride (having the *tallest* building). But argh the name 'freedom tower' just bugs me - could it not have a prettier name ?

oh and

Obviously a takeover by the philthy phrench.....
:m: :m: :m: :m: :m:
Since when are the Rotschilds french ?

[APDesign]

<off topic> Phil, I live in Wauwatosa (right next to milwaukee) </off topic>

[asphaltcowboy]

Originally posted by BadMagick
America is not 'minus' those people who were killed in the attacks of September 11 - not in the least.

We remember them still today. We hold them close to us as if they were alive still - and this new planned building is a way of raising them up above all else. they're still dead :-\

[Illuminae]

dudes, i can't believe this thread. some of you non americans (i won't mention names) are being total thatches, and some of you americans ( i won't mention names) are just making me cry for the american people. here's why. if your ashamed to live here, get the f*ck out. i sure as hell don't agree with Bush all the time, (heck, i don't even like him) and come of you made valid points in your arguments against us. but, that doesn't mean that people should be ashamed to be here, ashamed to live here, ashamed of our country.
that is like THE worst insult for every man that died fighting for YOUR life and the freedoms YOU enjoy EVERY day and OBVIOUSLY don't thank God for, or thank your country for, or appreciate.
that is an insult to the men who were great, the people who helped mold the country, who helped fight for equal rights, community services, medical programs, every man and woman that goes out and does somethign to help the community and work for a better place to live in, you all mock them. it's not americans who are messed up, its the americans that don't like america. EVERY country has arseholes that MAJORLY screwed up in history. but you don't see americans going around to all the countries and saying "you suck because...".
im sorry to say this, you have every right to believe what you want to, but everyone who points the finger at us needs to turn around and look in a mirror.
furthermore, it pisses me off, that we are the only country that has time and time again, fought for the underdog, stood up for the rights we believe in, tried to aid the wounded and deprived, time and time AGAIN, and yet, we are the FIRST scapegoat for the worlds problems.
we have a terroist attack, countless innocent people die, and some of you have the balls to say we deserved it?? ya know what. anyone who says that makes me sick. who fights for us? who stands up for us? who volunteers to aid us? we are the country that does the most help, and we are the country that gets the most sh!t.
i guess it's just like in real like, the generous guy who tried to help his brother gets used, abused, and kicked in the face.
whatever.

furthermore, i may not agree with everythign fester said, but i would like to say, props to fester, rere, and badmagick for their beautiful words, and making me feel proud that someone with better words then i is standing up for our country.

[DariusMonsef]

Sorry tha tmy words upset you RG, but I think you are misunderstanding some things.

I think the reason that some people who above said that are ashamed say it because they are very proud of the "men who were great, the people who helped mold the country, who helped fight for equal rights, community services, medical programs, every man and woman that goes out and does somethign to help the community and work for a better place to live in"

I think this country is founded on some great values and has done great things in the world, but unfortunately I feel like some of our greatness is being tarnished by some peoples decisions. I'm ashamed of my President and the attitude that in general comes from American regarding foreign politics.

I very much appreciate the people that died fighting for my right to free speech, that's why I exercise that right often. And I excercise it by saying what ever I feel, that is what freedom is.

Unfortunately Americans do go around often telling other countries, you suck because... you're french. You're Muslim. You're German... it does happen.

Also I agree that America deserves some credit for the aid and assistance it gives to other countries, but we sure have made some bad decisions in the past helping not the underdog, but the dog who most likely will give us a bone. We get harshly criticized for our mistakes because we are one of the most powerful countries.

If Michael Jordan has a 10 point game every says he played terrible and harshly speak of him. When an average player scores 10 points, it is a solid game. When you are a power player, you are expected to maintain your high level of play. It's just they way things go.

And while I don't agree or disagree with what other people not from the US say about our country, it would be a little unfair to allow them their freedom of speech to. We are a country founded on the premise that all men are created equal and thus should have the same rights. Not just Americans or people who agree with what our president is doing, but all people. And if someone wants to say the US is a big bully filled with cowboys wanting to shoot their guns off, well then I would want to help them see a different side of our country. Not put on my cowboy hat and boots and stomp their ***.

Just my two cents. I hope not to have offended.
-EM

[Illuminae]

well ethan, you certainly didn't offend me with your new post. thanks for clarifying that a bit though, i think you're a great guy and we've had some fun times, so i'm glad you didn't mean what you said the way i interpreted it. i guess it hit a sore spot for me, it's like, even after 911, i had some ppl i know saying good for america, out country sucks, blah blah, ya know the typical anarchist attitude and i just can't stand that anyway, you made soem valid points in your argument. :) in responce to one thing...


Originally posted by EthanM

And while I don't agree or disagree with what other people not from the US say about our country, it would be a little unfair to allow them their freedom of speech to. We are a country founded on the premise that all men are created equal and thus should have the same rights. Not just Americans or people who agree with what our president is doing, but all people. And if someone wants to say the US is a big bully filled with cowboys wanting to shoot their guns off, well then I would want to help them see a different side of our country. Not put on my cowboy hat and boots and stomp their ***.


i agree with you that people have freedom of speech, but my beef here is less of a patriotic defensiveness, but a humankind defensiveness. i have little patience with intolerance and ignorance, and whether someone is being rude, insensitive, and inexcusable towards americans, fat people, homoesxuals, or supermodels, it makes no difference. that will always make me irate.
you are right, we have the right to speak our minds, but not in a cruel and agressive way. attack the argument, not the person making it. it's like, if you said, i am concerned about the hole in the ozone, gina. and i said, ethan, your stupid. hehe. thats just not only bad argument technique, but it's infuriating and i will fight against anyone that is doing that. (yes, even if I do it, i'll smack myself)

[APDesign]

Sorry if I offended any Americans when I said that sometimes I am ashamed to be one, but its true. I know there is no way I can make you understand my point of view, because it would require that you experience some of things I have experienced or see some of things I have seen.

[Heres where I was going to write a long post attempting to display my views, before I realized that it wouldn't make any difference anyway. Thats right, I'm going to stop mid point like the coward I am and completely ditch my attempt to defend what I said and possibly clear up anything that seemed harsh or anti-American. Maybe I'll be inspired later, but right now I just don't have it in me - sorry]

[mlk]

redGolgi, we're criticizing the politics, not the people

[Illuminae]

maybe you are, but some people sure aren't

[Marz]

Eh... You know what... This entire post from beginning to end has made me laugh extremely...

I don't know why... I should have probably gotten offended... I should ahve probably got mad.. But instead I laughed...

I don't know why.. :D

[DariusMonsef]

I think of the "ashamed" comment as this.

Say you love your mother very much. You are thankful that she made you and raised you and all that she has done for you.

Well you mother took money from the register at the company she works for and was caught doing it.

You could be ashamed to be her son and still love her.

That is how I am ashamed to be American.


I also thought about the attitude that a lot of Americans take. For example someone says I hate American because they are always flexing their muscles and bullying other countries.

What! Now you're gonna get your *** handed to you as I show you how we can bully you.

I think the more mature response is... This person holds this view because of what they have experienced. If the truth is that we are not all bullies, then we should be compassionate and show them why this country is the best country in the world. We should take the time to hear their concerns and take the time to address them.

[Illuminae]

yes ethan, but a lot of people talk out their azzes. not everyone hasd opinions based on their experience or those around them.

[BlackKnight-DY-]

Originally posted by APDesign
I know there is no way I can make you understand my point of view, because it would require that you experience some of things I have experienced or see some of things I have seen.

I just wanted to share with you, Mr. APDesign, how it is that thinking that we cannot understand your point-of-view, simply because we have not experienced the same things you have, is a faulty notion.

For starters, by making such a statement, you are appealing to some sort of authority on the subject at hand because of some experiences you have had, which (you assume) we have not. Whether your personal experiences entitle you to any type of authoritative position is questionable. But even if you are able to establish some sort of authority by your experience, it only makes your argument more plausible. It does NOT mean that your authority aids in the logic of your argument in any way. Furthermore, if you hold a position of authority on a subject because of your experiences, it does not follow that your argument is made impenetrable by non-authorities.

In conclusion, the whole "you can't understand because you have never lived this way" stance is an untenable one. So, if you're going to make an anti-American argument, at least make it a logical one and do not cop-out by saying, "I'm not going to make an argument because you would not understand because you have not had the same experiences I have."

--------

Now, in regards to the subject at hand:

I think prior to going around and bashing Americans (or America -- because despite if you say you are bashing the "politics" or the "people," the reality is that they are intertwined. Our country is a Democratic Republic, after all), one should consider the other countries in the world and what freedoms their citizens possess. Sure, it is true that things here in the U.S. of A are not as great as they could be, but i challenge you to find a country where things are better.

In regards to those of you who are ashamed to be an American, it is sad that you have not taken the time and effort to realize what makes this country so great. If you feel that you have taken the time and effort and still do not like it here, then all I can tell you is that there are plenty of other places you can live. No one is keeping you here (yet another freedom that is granted of you). You should really consider all of your freedoms. I bet you take many of them for granted. Even simple things like playing video games: do you realize that they ban great games in many of the "Free" countries in the world, like Australia, because of their violence or other content (e.g. Grand Theft Auto)? I bet there are a lot of things that you do every day that you do not even realize are freedoms. It seems to me that you are angry with some circumstance in your life, or you disagree with several things that our government does, and then you look for a way to lash out and you target America as a whole. Our country is full of social cooperation. Social cooperation requires compromises and sometimes it means giving the other guy the right-of-way even if you thought you had the right-of-way. You're not always going to agree with what is done in the government, but that's why you're given the freedom to say / do something about it. But does it really make sense to condemn the government as a whole? I think not. So please, prior to making hasty generalizations about our great nation and saying statements like "America sucks, I hate America" or "I'm ashamed to be American," do your homework. There are far worse things to be in the world than an American.

[DariusMonsef]

Yes red that is true of any group of people. That would be a social weakness that is only improved by those who take the time to work through those beliefs that other carry around without experience to support it.

[Illuminae]

Originally posted by BlackKnight-DY-
I just wanted to share with you, Mr. APDesign, ...............world than an American.

YAYAYAY!!! you go baby. OMG, you make me so randy when you are right ;)

you are getting a reward for this one ;););)

yay for ryan! tell it like it is baby!!! i fully concur!

[Illuminae]

and that.. ladies and gentlemen, is why i'm in love with the man.

[BlackKnight-DY-]

Originally posted by redGolgi
and that.. ladies and gentlemen, is why i'm in love with the man.

:beam:

[Illuminae]

:love:

[Marz]

*yawwwn*...

So anyways.. A bunch of things that made me laugh even more... Ohh my.. You guys are hilarious. =)

We went from a cool looking building to everyone bashing each other...

If I was any of you... I would rather look at what you just brought about in this one little thread, instead of trying to declare who is "right" and who is "wrong"...

G'****.. Have a ****ing :beer: and relax.. If I was a MOD.. I'd change the name of this forum to 'Bashing Glory'.

Opinions are opinions... And if you try and make your opinion more prominent than another persons', whether that opinion is valid or not, makes no difference now because of your absurdity.

[Illuminae]

Originally posted by Marz
*yawwwn*...

So anyways.. A bunch of things that made me laugh even more... Ohh my.. You guys are hilarious. =)

We went from a cool looking building to everyone bashing each other...

If I was any of you... I would rather look at what you just brought about in this one little thread, instead of trying to declare who is "right" and who is "wrong"...

G'****.. Have a ****ing :beer: and relax.. If I was a MOD.. I'd change the name of this forum to 'Bashing Glory'.

Opinions are opinions... And if you try and make your opinion more prominent than another persons', whether that opinion is valid or not, makes no difference now because of your absurdity.

aren't you, in essence, bashing all of us, with yoru sarcasm, your **s and your insulting tone.

aren't you forcing your opinion on us just as much as we are focing it on eachother?

if you truely feel that you are superior to that behavior, why be guilty of doing it yourself?

[asphaltcowboy]

how far apart were the original two towers? surely, if you took all the ground area that those two buildings took up and made one, really wide building, you'd be able to have a building at least half, if not more than half the height.. small buildings can be just as pretty as big ones :sigh:

[reverendflash]

Short & wide may be okay in the UK, but tradition says that taller is better in the USA...

This building is more of a symbol than any other office building in America, so it fits that plan.

Revhttp://aulman.com/rev.gif

[Illuminae]

"lattice structure filled with energy-generating windmills would provide 20% of the structure's power"

gee, what a senseless waste of space. what gall, what absurdity!!! imagine that. those damm americans have the nerve to try and help the environment as well? they truely are horrible proud and ballsey.

[asphaltcowboy]

*cough* Kyoto *cough* :sure:

[reverendflash]

Originally posted by asphaltcowboy
*cough* Kyoto *cough* :sure:

so make your point...

not just a sarcastic word.

and you wonder why people get irritated with you?

Revhttp://aulman.com/rev.gif

[Illuminae]

i dunno what that means (kyoto)

[Marz]

Originally posted by redGolgi
aren't you, in essence, bashing all of us, with yoru sarcasm, your **s and your insulting tone.

aren't you forcing your opinion on us just as much as we are focing it on eachother?

if you truely feel that you are superior to that behavior, why be guilty of doing it yourself?


You can accept what I just stated as an opinion.. But when you actually look at what I stated. Isn't it more factual?

FACT : this thread ineed made me laugh

FACT : we did indeed go from a cool looking building to everyone bashing each other, you enthralled in it yourself

FACT : if I indeed was any of you, I would indeed be looking back at what I just started and take question to myself

FACT : I do indeed wish everyone would relax and have a beer and if I was wa mod I would definetly change the forum name if I could

FACT : Opinions are opinions... :sigh:

FACT : If you indeed try and make your opinion more prominent or more powerful than any other persons', you will indeed find someone who doesn't agree with you and will knock your opinion down, marking it as absurd now.


FACT : Opinions can be false at times, facts can not be false, false facts as it is told are called lies.

Therefore, my prior statement, being filled with nothing but "facts", is indeed, not an OPINION.

[asphaltcowboy]

Indeed, I'd be quite happy for the Queen to kiss my bum too - Royal Family.. pretty much a waste of space... except for the minimal boost in tourism that they create... jmo :)

does that mean you're getting irritated with me rev? *sob* :*( I do apologise. Are you seriously saying that you didnt know what I was suggesting by typing "Kyoto"? I figured you'd understand exactly what I was talking about - you watch the news every now and then, right?

then again, since red was unaware of what kyoto referred to.. I guess we made need to explain a few things.. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=USA+Abandon+Kyoto+Agreement

*splutter*

EDIT: either way - 20% of a building that size is pretty f-ing pathetic..

[Marz]

*joins philbert in the thinking man position opposite in hopes of bringing two minds together*

[Illuminae]

Originally posted by Marz
You can accept what I just stated as an opinion.. But when you actually look at what I stated. Isn't it more factual?

FACT : this thread ineed made me laugh

FACT : we did indeed go from a cool looking building to everyone bashing each other, you enthralled in it yourself

FACT : if I indeed was any of you, I would indeed be looking back at what I just started and take question to myself

FACT : I do indeed wish everyone would relax and have a beer and if I was wa mod I would definetly change the forum name if I could

FACT : Opinions are opinions... :sigh:

FACT : If you indeed try and make your opinion more prominent or more powerful than any other persons', you will indeed find someone who doesn't agree with you and will knock your opinion down, marking it as absurd now.


FACT : Opinions can be false at times, facts can not be false, false facts as it is told are called lies.

Therefore, my prior statement, being filled with nothing but "facts", is indeed, not an OPINION.


Let me add to your list of facts then:

FACT: *yawwwn*... this is condecending. it says you are above trite argument. not only does that indicate that you are presuming yourself superior, because you, unlike us sees the triteness of our ways, but you are completely ignoring the fact that although things get heated, everyone is making valid points and the point of discussion and argument is to learn form eachother. or we can all sit on our thumbs and not give a damm and try and be hoity toity and non confrontational. and turn the other way. and not learn and grow as people from our arguments.

FACT: G'****.. Have a ****ing and relax
well, this is most certainly an opinion. i guess it's your OPINION that we need to relax. nice way to judge what is right for others to feel.

[Marz]

*television snow happening*

*inserts an RGB cable into phils ears and the other end into his own*

*fuzziness but a small mental image*

*smacks his head*

*clear image now*

There we go :D

[asphaltcowboy]

Originally posted by Phil Jayhan
http://www.noveltp.com/gallery/images/thinker_john.jpg lol, quite literally a 'mind meld crap'! :D

[reverendflash]

Originally posted by Phil Jayhan
**phil grabs Marz phace and imposes a Vulcan mind meld on Marz, your thoughts to my thoughts, mine to yours and all that mind meld crap**

pj :P
too phunny,

edit;pj

Revhttp://aulman.com/rev.gif

[asphaltcowboy]

lol, 'mind meld crap: girl's edition™'

[Illuminae]

also...

FACT: indicating that this is a trite argument is, indeedy, your opinion as well. it may seem stupid to you, but it certainly is not stupid to the people in the argument. i doubt any of us like to argue because we hate eachother. we are arguing that an issue that we are all passionate about, even if our veiws conflict.

[kirupa]

WOhooo!!! Good thing I brought my flame-resistant tinfoil hat and suit :) I agree with Phil on the Kyoto thing - if you don't like most entry-level jobs being exported overseas, Kyoto would only make that problem worse. Kyoto exempted countries such as China and India which are one of the bigger recipients of overseas jobs :asian: :ub:

[Marz]

Originally posted by redGolgi
Let me add to your list of facts then:

FACT: *yawwwn*... this is condecending. it says you are above trite argument. not only does that indicate that you are presuming yourself superior, because you, unlike us sees the triteness of our ways, but you are completely ignoring the fact that although things get heated, everyone is making valid points and the point of discussion and argument is to learn form eachother. or we can all sit on our thumbs and not give a damm and try and be hoity toity and non confrontational. and turn the other way. and not learn and grow as people from our arguments.

FACT: G'****.. Have a ****ing and relax
well, this is most certainly an opinion. i guess it's your OPINION that we need to relax. nice way to judge what is right for others to feel.

You know what's even funnier red?

The fact that you got all that out of me *yawwning*.. because you are assuming the wrong thing :)

I am indeed tired and I've been working since 5 am this morning.. Therefore.. I *yawwwn* because there wasn't enough oxygen in my brain at that time and place and I needed to place more into it.

That's all..

And me saying to have a ****ing beer and relax is me giving a command more than it is an opinion..

An opinionated view would be me saying..

G'**** I think you people need to relax and have a :beer:.

I just want everyone to have a beer with me and come and relax if they aren't doing so..

:) SO here... Have a :beer: and come relax. This thread is looong gone.

[Illuminae]

i would absolutely love a beer. and if you did not, in fact, mean to indicate sarcasm in your yawn, then i truely apologize for inferring that. in my defense i would think that being the intelligent person that you are you would be aware of that way people would interpret that. granted things get misconstrued in text, because we can't see eachother or hear eachother, but a statement such as that gernerally indicates sarcasm, so you can't completely blame me either.

[DariusMonsef]

First, I wasn't bashing I was arguing. Which is sometimes thought to be a form of intellectual conversation.



Originally posted by BlackKnight-DY-

Now, in regards to the subject at hand:

I think prior to going around and bashing Americans (or America -- because despite if you say you are bashing the "politics" or the "people," the reality is that they are intertwined. Our country is a Democratic Republic, after all), one should consider the other countries in the world and what freedoms their citizens possess. Sure, it is true that things here in the U.S. of A are not as great as they could be, but i challenge you to find a country where things are better.

And while ADP might have been appealing to an inapropriate authority, you are appealing to our ignorance. Simply because there is not a country that has more freedom that the US doesn't make it the ideal for freedom.



In regards to those of you who are ashamed to be an American, it is sad that you have not taken the time and effort to realize what makes this country so great. If you feel that you have taken the time and effort and still do not like it here, then all I can tell you is that there are plenty of other places you can live. No one is keeping you here (yet another freedom that is granted of you).


You are stating that being ashamed of America and not taking the time to realize why this country is so great are analogous things, but you haven't given any premises to support your analogy.



You should really consider all of your freedoms. I bet you take many of them for granted. Even simple things like playing video games: do you realize that they ban great games in many of the "Free" countries in the world, like Australia, because of their violence or other content (e.g. Grand Theft Auto)? I bet there are a lot of things that you do every day that you do not even realize are freedoms. It seems to me that you are angry with some circumstance in your life, or you disagree with several things that our government does, and then you look for a way to lash out and you target America as a whole. Our country is full of social cooperation. Social cooperation requires compromises and sometimes it means giving the other guy the right-of-way even if you thought you had the right-of-way. You're not always going to agree with what is done in the government, but that's why you're given the freedom to say / do something about it. But does it really make sense to condemn the government as a whole? I think not. So please, prior to making hasty generalizations about our great nation and saying statements like "America sucks, I hate America" or "I'm ashamed to be American," do your homework. There are far worse things to be in the world than an American.

Your argument about taking freedoms for granted is a straw man. Because we have the right to play GTA has no relation to whether or not a person is dissapointed with the choices our leader is making.

Trying to use the fact that there are worse things to be called than American doesn't stand up as a sound premise to the conclusion that America is a great country. There are many other reasons that it is.

I've done my homework and I've thought a long time about it. And sometimes I'm ashamed to be an American.

[Marz]

Ohh.. I'm not trying to laugh because of that red.. I'm just having myself ajolly good time here tonight because I did "indeed" have a loooong day so far.. it's good to unwind and let loose the craziness at times ;)

And your right.. That *yawwn* could be misconstrued by alot of people... And being the person I am.. I should have known better and I should have placed *yawwwwn*.. Tired.. instead :D

Now.. Let's have a :beer: and have fun :D

[Illuminae]

i'm going straight for the rum... ;) lol

[Marz]

E-gads.. Black... You do indeed got yourself a fine lady :beer: CHEERS to that...

Feisty, I'm guessing red hair and loves her rum...

Gah... You better hold on to her mate *lmao*

[Illuminae]

lol :blush:

[asphaltcowboy]

Originally posted by Phil Jayhan
So, what does everyone think of Phreedom Tower anyways? :whistle:who the hell thought that up? could anyone have thought up a more preposterous, cheap, unoriginal and tacky name? maybe that could be a new thread - if you have to come up with a cheap and tacky name for a tower, what would it be?

[kirupa]

Originally posted by Phil Jayhan
So, what does everyone think of Phreedom Tower anyways? :whistle:

pj :P:P:P
With the exception of the "ph" thing, the name sounds good. Too bad it doesn't have a sharp, iron-chef chopping up a bamboo sound like "Petronas" :*(

[asphaltcowboy]

Originally posted by kirupa
With the exception of the "ph" thing, the name sounds good. Too bad it doesn't have a sharp, iron-chef chopping up a bamboo sound like "Petronas" :*( you don't think it's somewhat tacky and unoriginal, k-man?

[reverendflash]

Originally posted by asphaltcowboy
you don't think it's somewhat tacky and unoriginal, k-man?

Hey, Bush wanted to call it "The Tower of Light" ... after his father...

Revhttp://aulman.com/rev.gif

[asphaltcowboy]

If he wanted to name it after his father, why not call it "Pillock of lig-".. I mean... um.. Pillar! "PILLAR of Light" ;)

[BlackKnight-DY-]

Originally posted by Marz
E-gads.. Black... You do indeed got yourself a fine lady :beer: CHEERS to that...

Feisty, I'm guessing red hair and loves her rum...

Gah... You better hold on to her mate *lmao*

Haha, will do, thanks Marz. And a fine lady she is indeed.

EthanM: it's not a straw man because I never made any statement about "the choices our leader is making."

But I will have to remember to give a full response later. As for now, I'm off to make my parents see "The Last Samurai." Great movie and I highly recommend it. ;)

[asphaltcowboy]

Originally posted by BlackKnight-DY-
But I will have to remember to give a full response later. As for now, I'm off to make my parents see "The Last Samurai." Great movie and I highly recommend it. ;) are you going with them to see it? or are you just forcing them out the door and checking that they make it to the cinema ok? :P

[Illuminae]

Originally posted by EthanM
First, I wasn't bashing I was arguing. Which is sometimes thought to be a form of intellectual conversation.




And while ADP might have been appealing to an inapropriate authority, you are appealing to our ignorance. Simply because there is not a country that has more freedom that the US doesn't make it the ideal for freedom.



You are stating that being ashamed of America and not taking the time to realize why this country is so great are analogous things, but you haven't given any premises to support your analogy.



Your argument about taking freedoms for granted is a straw man. Because we have the right to play GTA has no relation to whether or not a person is dissapointed with the choices our leader is making.

Trying to use the fact that there are worse things to be called than American doesn't stand up as a sound premise to the conclusion that America is a great country. There are many other reasons that it is.

I've done my homework and I've thought a long time about it. And sometimes I'm ashamed to be an American.

Ethan, you are my friend, so don't take this like I'm trying to attack you. And I am not saying this because I'm trying to take BK's side because I'm with him or anything. I am in fact saying this because I agree with him. So here goes:

First of all, I am sure that his comments weren't specifically directed to you, APD, or anyone else, in an attacking way, but a statement in general about that type of thinking. True, some of the points were obviously sparked by the things that several of you said, but he wasn't (nor was I) trying to say 'you guys suck' or whatnot.

Secondly, I think the main thing that is bothering, him, me, and anyone else that got upset, is the statement "sometimes im ashamed to be an american"
i do see your points, and i agree with you, and i really don't liek a lot of the things that our govornment does, or certian politicians. but instead of beign ashamed of being an american, im simply embarrased that we have such dolts leading the country. i don't feel responsible for those dolts though, and in my opinion, feeling ashamed for someone else's actions is taking more responsibility then you should. aside form the personal issues, i just think it conveys a worse image of us to other countries then if we said, "yes, said politician is stupid, but i do not agree, and i will instead take actions to make everything better, instead of feeling ashamed of my country" i just see a big difference between being ashamed of my country and being upset with the head cheese's actions. like i said, i do understand what you mean, but that is the way i approach the issue.
don't condemn the whole for a few's corruption. i know you weren't in your heart, but it seemed as if you were saying that, and not specifically you, but a LOT of people do that. and i know that it would upset you just as it upsets me, so you can see how that is a sore spot for some people.

[Illuminae]

Originally posted by asphaltcowboy
who the hell thought that up? could anyone have thought up a more preposterous, cheap, unoriginal and tacky name? maybe that could be a new thread - if you have to come up with a cheap and tacky name for a tower, what would it be?

i really don't think that its tacky. our country is built on freedom. freedom is an ultimate in the hearts of americans. it means a lot to us, and in light of the circumstances surrounding the tower, i think it is an adequate way to express our emotions on the issue as well.

[asphaltcowboy]

but... but they're gonna call it "Freedom Tower" fgs.. sure, freedom may be a big thing.. but c'mon.. you just can't call a tower, "Freedom Tower".. sounds like something out of a badly-written children's fantasy novel! it's... it's just against the Rules of Tower-Naming™ :-\

Why not call it Isengard or something? :D

[Illuminae]

hahahahahahhahahaha, dude, i agree that Isengard would be sooo much cooler.

[BlackKnight-DY-]

No no no, Orthanc, not Isengard =p

[reverendflash]

I'll bet a certain discount superstore would pay to name it...


The Target Tower

:D

someone had to say it

Revhttp://aulman.com/rev.gif

[Illuminae]

wow. 10 points to rev :beam:

[BlackKnight-DY-]

My late response to what you said Ethan, although it's rather irrelevant now.


Originally posted by EthanM

And while ADP might have been appealing to an inapropriate authority, you are appealing to our ignorance. Simply because there is not a country that has more freedom that the US doesn't make it the ideal for freedom.


I believe I said something to the effect of "It is true that it is not ideal, but that doesn't mean it's horrible either." I conceded the fact that the US is not ideal for freedom and I was not appealing to ignorance.




You are stating that being ashamed of America and not taking the time to realize why this country is so great are analogous things, but you haven't given any premises to support your analogy.


You're correct in that I did not clarify. What I was simply stating was that if you have a gripe about our country in some way (be it a politician, the president, a certain action taken by our government, a law that was passed, whatever), then you should stick to the thing you have a gripe about and not mushroom it into "the entire country is the problem." To say, "I'm ashamed to be an American" is essentially saying, "at this time I don't want to be an American / I wish I was not an American." So, when things go your way, you're gung ho about being an American, and when they don't, you wish you weren't one (If it were the case that you were always ashamed of being an American, then you probably wouldn't live here, not just muse about it). The problem with this attitude is that it is unhelpful. Problems with institutions don't get solved by blaming the institution for someone's practice. For example, if a priest in the clergy molests a child, that is not a fault of the instution of Catholicism, it is a fault of the practice of an individual within that institution. If you were a Catholic at the time of the incident, to say, "I'm ashamed to be Catholic" is to misunderstand the problem. You are throwing the blame upon the institution for the perverted acts of one (or several) individuals.

In short, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.




Your argument about taking freedoms for granted is a straw man. Because we have the right to play GTA has no relation to whether or not a person is dissapointed with the choices our leader is making.


That is incorrect. It is not a straw man for a couple of reasons. Number one, that portion of what I said was not really relevant to my argument. At that point, I was not really making any claims. It was simply a statement made to make one reflect upon some of the freedoms we take for granted, down to silly, simply things, like video games we can buy. Furthermore, I never made any claims or statements in regards to our leader or his choices.



Trying to use the fact that there are worse things to be called than American doesn't stand up as a sound premise to the conclusion that America is a great country. There are many other reasons that it is.


I did not say that there are worse things to be CALLED than an American, I said there are worse things that you could BE than an American, meaning that if you are ashamed of what you are, then you might consider how ashamed you might be if you were a citizen of a different country. Again, I think you misunderstood me. I was not arguing that America is a great country. I was arguing that if you are an American and you choose to live under the roof of the U.S. of A, then you should not be going around saying you are ashamed to be an American.

[Illuminae]

he was away for a logn time being tortured by his family in the movies

[Illuminae]

well, he had some valid points to address in the spirit of clarification, and i think he had every right to bring it up again :P
specially since it has become sort of the topic. specially since things have cooled down and we're all cozy again.
:P ;)

[Illuminae]

mm. sugarplums and molson

[Illuminae]

:beam: keep the cheeze, trade the ritz for triscuits :happy sigh:

[Illuminae]

ok, how about this.. smoked cheese, and those cool crackers with the seeds, ya know, the long ones

[Illuminae]

hehehehe

[APDesign]

Originally posted by BlackKnight-DY-
[B]I just wanted to share with you, Mr. APDesign...
Ok, I don't know what type false authority you pulled out of my statement about my experiences.. but I'll let you in on a little secret... I'm a 19 year old white middle class slacker that lives in a suburb of a large city. My "experiences" just mean every thing I have read about, everything I have seen, and everything I have thought about for long amounts of time in my basement while working on little flash programs that don't matter anyway. I was in no way trying to gain a blind advantage over anyone. (if that whole thing seemed 'attacking' it wasn't meant to - just letting everyone know where I'm coming from (nowhere.)) Also, you took my "ashamed to be an American" comment as me being "anti-American" which isn't true at all, I don't know what else to say about that... I'll try to clarify my statement in some weird analogy like thing that probably still won't make sense.

When I was in high school (not to long ago) I would constantly witness boys my age harass women. Sometimes it was little thing that the girls probably didn't even care about, and sometimes it was pretty big things (ie: touching) and the girls would laugh and giggle, the boys would walk away and then the smile would melt off their face as they continued on to their next class, where they would be objectified again by another *******. That kind of stuff really pisses me off and makes me ashamed to be a man. Every girl I talk to instantly has the feeling that I'm trying to get into her pants.

THAT is how I am sometimes "ashamed to be an American."

[Coppertop]

"The Freedom Tower". How painfully American.

This building belongs in a computer game I swear. The idea of what to put in it's place has never bothered me. My thoughts were always "Just build the **** towers again, except technologically up to date." You could consider it like... a forceful renovation. You could also have outside of the buildings a small park type thing with a big stone in the middle with the victims names caved on it.

There are 2 things about September 11th that bother me above everything else:
People are making money off of this. Or so I have been told. I think that is just disgusting.

That the US demanded pity. While they deserved some because of the lives lost and the manner in which it happened - the US are getting too much. It's like it becomes so much worse, and tragic, and horrible as soon as it happens to an American Citizen. In the same week (a day or two before if my memory hasn't failed me) there was a massive earthquake in india killing many more people then at the World Trade Centre. Guess what? It wasn't mentioned on CNN or ABC once! Filthy bastards.

**** CNN, to hell with them - I have watched them so many times, and in comparison with the CBC or BBC (when I was in Scotland for 3 weeks) they have so much bias and opinion already injected into their reports. It's almost as if they are the ones controlling the general public opinion. When I watch either CBC or CNN, the "american citizens" are generally the middle aged white "hippy" type. Bastards. I hate them too.

I could go on but my "You will get flamed for this" alert thing has been beating me up since I started writing this.

One last thing - if they are going to build this, for the love of god, change the name. I might vomit less.

[Illuminae]

i don't think the american people would like the two towers rebuilt. i think it would be too painful, like, imagine if some1 in yoru family died and then you had to look at the building they died in every day or something. at least thats my opinion.

[asphaltcowboy]

Build two again and call it Tiffany Towers :bad:

[fester8542]

Originally posted by Phil Jayhan
wow phester,

this thread has shown some pretty raw nerves phrom just about everyone.....

I would much prefer something along the lines of "Krusty Towers"
A giant 1 mile high building in the silhouette of Krusty the Clown;
On his hair, on each side will be restaurants; Krusty would have wanted it that way....

pj :P


True. Its funny how sometimes the most simple thread can spin incredibly out of control. It was rough on Friday afternoon when I left (Partially because of me I admit) but I didnt check it until this morning.

(I disconnect from my PC over the weekends and party it up with my boys.)

Some interesting opinions for sure.

[Niann]

Originally posted by Coppertop
When I watch either CBC or CNN, the "american citizens" are generally the middle aged white "hippy" type. Bastards. I hate them too.


To have such blind hate for people you don't even know. I feel sorry for you, I really do.

Cheers!
-Niann