What is Good Design ?

[brownie]

Good design will out live fashions and doesn't seem to "age". Why is this?
Can good design be quantified?
Can anyone define what good design is or is it all just personal taste?
There are obviously things that look good or pleasing to most people ie a Jaguar motor car.

How can this be applied to web design?

Cheers
Michael

[Coppertop]

Well, that kind of conversation about design belongs in ordered, but for the last question "can this be applied to web design?" I recomend a book.

The book is called "Son of websites that suck" this book teaches good design philosphy by pointing out bad ideas. It's very useful. Look for it at your local book store with a computer section.

[BadMagick]

Web Design tips...
1. Don't make me think. If the user has to think about where they're going when at your site, or where certain information is, you've failed at creating a good design.
2. Don't make me laugh. If the user laughs at your web site (unless it's intended), that's never good. I've seen sites so bad that I had to laugh - I just couldn't find the words to describe how bad it was.
3. Don't trust yourself. If you base your design on what you think and how you like your site to be, there's chance you might alienate some people. If the site is not easy to use for your visitors, it doesn't really matter if you understand and like it.

That's at least what I learned from my IST 250 course which is on web design...

[Coppertop]

general tips from S.O.W.S.T.S (site: www.websitesthatsuck.com <= handy!):

-spash pages only delay the users enjoyment, avoid them whenever possible. Exceptions: ex, when you have more than one language, or more that one version (eg, one flash, one html)
-make your site as brainless as possible to navigate. if people have to think, then it is not good.
-things should be easily accesable
-people shouldn't have to mouse over a button to find out what it does

tips from me:
-don't put your site in a pop-up, it annoys more people than it wows. Especially those with popup blockers.
-if you must have a spash page, make it more than an enter button. Make it something that wows, like a good intro to a book. However, don't have more than one spashpage - ever!

[Digitalosophy]

let's all not forget waiting time. i have dsl, if i have to wait a while to see your site, you killed it.

[Coppertop]

-intros on sites if they are spectacular, put them in, if not, leave them the hell out. They really are a waste of time, space on your site, and bandwidth. If you need any intro, put it at a max of 15-20 seconds, and make it part of the actual site (ie, it is in the same swf) a good example is here: http://www.infiniumlabs.com/intro.html (although it is longer than 20 seconds, its worth it.)

-if I have to wait more than 1 minute for your site to load, its not worth it.

[Phat7]

#1 thing in good design:

Know your audience... ;)

[McGiver]

good design is a combination of:
+Eye for the detail
+Eye for color combinations
+New Ideas (nothing can be good if it's a rip)
+inspiration (let yourself be influenced by daily life)

[Jasninder]

This is a tricky question, i would say, use these fundamentals
: Know your target audiance
: Know whats needed not what you want to make of it
Like an unwanted flash intro or splash page
: Client is always right coz he knows better then you about his business, try to read his mind.

Read these Commandment :

Commandment 1 : Thou shalt be clear about what the hell thou art presenting to the user. Unless your user is the Amazing Kreskin.

Commandment 2 : Thou shalt design the site so that it's appropriate for your audience. Don't use a dark Tomb-Raider theme if you're an online shoe store or a financial service.

Commandment 3 : Thou shalt not use java applets unless Moses himself appears in a burning pile of copier paper in your office and insists that you should.

Commandment 4 : Thou shalt not force a user to wait for a megabyte or more of Flash file downloading as the first thing they experience at your site.

Commandment 5 : Thou shalt make the more important parts of any given page layout more prominent than the less important parts of your page.

Look at the newspaper. The front page headline is the biggest. There's a good-sized page 1 photo keeps the page from becoming a visual wasteland of black type. There are headlines above each story. There are subheads within some stories. The body copy is legible, but not too big or too small. The author bylines are small. There is a menu somewhere on the page telling you how to find movies, sports, etc. The page is organized in easy to understand columns. There's a reason why every major newspaper in the world adheres to these basic design principles.

But don't make your web designs look like newspapers. That's not the point! If you don't get the point yet, wash, rinse, and repeat the preceding paragraph.

Commandment 6 : Thou shalt not use too many colors. Thou shalt attempt to learn something about color harmony.

Commandment 7 : Thou shalt kern thy bitmapped type unless thou wantest to be known simply as "Shmendrick, the Village Design Idiot"

Commandment 8 : Thou shalt look at thy site on a variety of browsers. Just because you're on a PC using IE 5.5 doesn't mean your users are. You can't accommodate every browser config for sure, but it's horrifying how many site submissions we get that ONLY look good on a PC on IE 5.5.

Commandment 9 : Thou shalt make sure your images are clear, and free of those dreaded Mad-Cow disease causing jaggies. On somebody else's site, jaggies are hilarious -- but not on your site.

Commandment 10 : Thou shalt not be accused of Flash-love. It's habit forming and causes hairy palms and blindness. Everything in moderation grasshopper. Use Flash when it's appropriate.

Commandment 11 : Thou shalt learn as much as possible about typography, layout, and color as soon as possible.

Commandment 12 : Thou shalt achieve BALANCE in thine page layouts. Look at the elements on the page as if they all possess weight and gravity. The larger items possessing more weight than the smaller ones. Imagine a seesaw underneath all the page elements, supporting the entire page layout. The seesaw should seem as though it would balance itself due to the weight of the elements being evenly distributed. Not too much weight on either side so as to 'tip' the seesaw.

Commandment 13 : Thou shalt proofread, proofread, proofread. Then do it again.
Contributed by: CJackson www.junkology.org

Commandment 14 : Thou shalt have clear and easy to use navigation which does not change with each new page.
Contributed by: Ely Cannon

Commandment 15 : Thou shalt not use the HTML tag <BLINK>
contributed by: Mike Hagan

Commandment 16 : Thou shalt not loop a sound over and over without a 'Sound Off' button. No matter how cool you think the sound loop is.
Contributed by: Anthony Keenan www.custombike.org

Commandment 17 : Thou shalt not apply for web-design jobs after a single community college class on using FrontPage.

Commandment 18 : Thou shalt not using Comic Sans as a header font unless thou wants to induce vomiting for someone that has ingested poison. (Ed. Note: This is my favorite Commandment!)

Commandment 19 : Thou shalt not use horizontal rules that are rainbow animations unless you are a Hawaiian.

Commandment 20 : Thou shalt not sneak in links to their sponsors as ways to increase click-throughs. We will hunt you down and kill you for this!

Commandment 21 : Thou shalt realize that 42 fonts is not better than two on a page.

Commandments 17-21 contributed by:
Josh Spivey www.jlswebsource.com

Commandment 22 : Thou shalt look up the word 'consistency' in Webster's Dictionary before layout out all your site pages. The user should not be confused with a different page design every time they click to a new page.
Contributed by: Chris Irwin

Commandment 23 : Thou shalt use thy Spell Checker.
Contributed by: Danna Griego www.pinkflamingodesign.com

Commandment 24 : Thou shalt see a doctor and get rid of it if thou sufferest from "Pop-Up Window Madness". Pop-ups are not meant to be used as a way to get to the next page.
Contributed by: Rich Rodecker www.testa.com

Commandment 25 : Thou shalt optimize thine images
contributed by: Ann Schwartz

Commandment 26 : Thou shalt not use the same Photodisc photos that everyone else uses.
Contributed by: Mark Priestap

Commandment 27 : Thou shalt attempt to design pages that look great on low-end or high-end systems. To achieve this is truly a sign of divinity.
Contributed by: Mark Kathmann www.kathmann.com

Commandment 28 : Thou shalt not use frames unless there is a need.

source : http://www.coolhomepages.com/cda/10commandments/

[brownie]

Great advice on the last part of the question people....any chance of a discussion on the rest of it?

Cheers
Michael

[Jasninder]

how can this be applied to web design?

i guess it all depends on you as u have skills and now information too, i think we learn from our and others experiences, follow the rules and you are on right path.

[Phat7]

The first part of your questions is really interesting. I have to think over this...

[Coppertop]

Commandment 29: Thou shalt not concieve a geocities account for thy soul purpose of presentith multiple animated .gifs. Thon does not count as a site of web. (EX: http://hometown.aol.com/sweetnsexitempt6/page1.html <= Viewer Descresion Advised, REALLY BAD)

[Jasninder]

Good one copper =)
lets get this to 100 shall we? :P

http://hometown.aol.com/sweetnsexitempt6/images/chicken.gif

[Coppertop]

Hey, I like that idea.

[Jasninder]

lets start working on it then hey
what do u say... new thread or we continue here?

[Coppertop]

EDIT: On second though, new thread: The 100 Commandments of Web Design

Commandment 30 : Thou shalt not use javaScript that follows thon mouse. That pissith many a persons off.

[Jasninder]

Commandment 31 : Thou shalt avoid the side scrolls on a page :sure:

can u please make a thread m8 i will join u later on. If i start a thread they ll all think i am spamming again and they ll not even view the thread :P and yea u can add 28 commandments i got it from coolhomepages.

Thanks man
It's kinda late here but i ll checkout the thread later on.. =)

[brownie]

I loveth thine commandments

Hey I don't really mind if the thread gets hi jacked...its still on topic really

[Xpeder]

akk humm

http://www.kirupaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35702&highlight=sanity

[Jasninder]

I can't find the thread copper started yesterday :(

[eyeinfinitude]

That's because I deleted it. No point in starting a new thread when there is this thread already.

[Jasninder]

ah ok.

[Luigifan]

number 32

thou shall take constructive critism!

[Jasninder]

good one lugifam but we are specifically talking about the designing process and not the feedback, it's an important point u brot into our attention, constructive critism can help great deal but u should also see whoz criticising.

[Kitiara]

Number 33: Thou shalt not create Mystery Meat Navigation.
There's nothing worse than a menu you can't even find, let alone operate.

[thoriphes]

Originally posted by Kitiara
Number 33: Thou shalt not create Mystery Meat Navigation.
There's nothing worse than a menu you can't even find, let alone operate. :( That's a shame.

[Jasninder]

i wonder what made u sad thor, i like wat kit said , makes perfect sence to me :p

[Kitiara]

Pet peeve of mine, no doubt inspired by looking through SotW submissions... :sure:

[ave]

#1 thing in good design:

Know your audience...

Couldnt agree more :)
I agree many of thing things people mention can be annoying but flash web design is a form of art in my opinion.
I mean if you want a site with masses of info and data which is just purely neat and functional then use HTML and php etc....

If you are using flash at all then it already shows that you probably want a more visually impacting site than a basic HTML/code site.

So sometimes things like functionality must be comprimised achieve a certian look or feel.
Like 2advanced as an example of a universally accpeted good site (for the most part) it looks fantastic but really many of the bells and whistles could be removed and make a much easier less confusing site for the average web user, but then itd lose its visual impact....design and functionality is a bit of a catch 22

[McGiver]

Ok, here again, the best example for superior design ;)
http://www.geocities.com/webtekrocks/

[ave]

thats painful to look at...

[Jasninder]

Originally posted by ave
Couldnt agree more :)


:love:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by McGiver
Ok, here again, the best example for superior design
http://www.geocities.com/webtekrocks/

:hr:

24,000 volt shock

[Coppertop]

Commandment 34 : Thou shal use readable text. If thy usith scribblitious at 6pt thy lord shal come down and kickith thy arsehole. If thy also usith text that exisitith in the same colour as thy background, thy lord shall come down from the heaveans and beatith the with a stick.

[Jasninder]

Originally posted by Coppertop
Commandment 34 : Thou shal use readable text. If thy usith scribblitious at 6pt thy lord shal come down and kickith thy arsehole. If thy also usith text that exisitith in the same colour as thy background, thy lord shall come down from the heaveans and beatith the with a stick.


Lord shal come down and kickith thy arsehole.

lord shall come down from the heaveans and beatith the with a stick.
really funny hahahah:cap:

[ave]

how about..

"Thou shalt not create utterly crap web sites , which stresses thine melon to look at"

the last site posted is bad enough to give acid flash backs or worse....

[McGiver]

webtekrocks reached cult status!
I fell in love with their webtips
http://www.geocities.com/webtekrocks/html/html_tips.html

and always remember: IF IT DOESN'T FIT - RESIZE IT!! ;)

[brownie]

surley thats not a real web design company
someone is having a good laugh

[Jasninder]

having a good laugh? more like being a laughing stock i'd say :)

[ave]

more frightening is if anyone actually paid them money :)
although i think its got its web tongue firmly in its web cheek.

[Jasninder]

man o man, wat a point ave... gosh if someone paid him for this :dowehaveshockedsmilehere?:
and yea i think u r also right about tht tongue and cheek thing:P

[ave]

right on man :) i here that

[brownie]

35
Thou shall not upload 56meg mpg files and tell thine veiwer that it will stream
www.zedleppelin.com

This guy is a friend of mine that has done 3 years Cert 3 Multimedia
oh my god what are they teaching them

[McGiver]

lol!

[ave]

ignore the content of this ok i was looking it up for another thread im posting in.
But click the link on this page and wow the pop up which appears really is a fine example of how not to design ANYTHING.

LINK (http://freespace.virgin.net/nigel.nicholson/SSCLE/Crusade%20Faqs/f-pacifist.html)

check out the annoying scrolling text while that FANTASTIC background pic stays still and the groovy use of frames is particularly choice :smirk:

[minimalistik]

"simple but effective"

without proper layout is very bad. Especially many websites on geocities. Has anyone ever encountered a geocities site without proper planning.?

[CanadianGuy]

No pictures of ugly people can really hinder a site.

http://www.websitesthatsuck.com/images/vincent-flanders2.jpg

Especially when they take the picture theirself. :to: :geek:

[dreamer]

design is not like math where there is only one answer.

there is no right, there is no wrong. In my opinion good design is one that pushes the limits of the confined without making it less useful. And there is never a good design as people have different taste.

what i can say is that if you like it, then it's a good design, simple as that. there is no rule. design is art and in art there are to limits to what you can do.

but then i can say, "the artist is never satisifed with his own work"

[T-O]

Commandment 35 : thou shall not put your srollbar on the left side of your window.

You can do this by adding this CSS style
<style type="text/css"> body { direction:rtl; } </style>
it will annoy and piss of your viewers

[Krilnon]

I can see how that would annoy me. Alot.

[kirupa]

Don't Arabic (maybe other foreign-language) sites have scrollbars on the other side?

I think a good site should simply help me find whatever I am there looking for :)

[Krilnon]

I personally would be distracted, if only for a few seconds, which would make my goal harder to achieve.

[garyzero]

knowing when to quit, don't overdo it, lots and lots of layouts or thumbnails before you even look at the computer, and listening to your teams feedback(even the stupid people).

[Laslett]

Good design will out live fashions and doesn't seem to "age". Why is this?
Can good design be quantified?
Can anyone define what good design is or is it all just personal taste?
There are obviously things that look good or pleasing to most people ie a Jaguar motor car.

How can this be applied to web design?

Cheers
Michael


I can't be arsed to read through all 52 posts but in my opion a good design is one that does the job. If that is getting you the £3000 for the site you designed then so be it. If its one that gets you 3million visitors cuz you have an ad banner that everytime someone sees it it nets you £0.001p they job done. These webby awards may recognise what constitues good design but to be honest you may have the best site in the world but if no-one goes there then whats the point!

[gps]

hai the best design is all browser compatible