ur a idoit: Learn it in School!

[Yates]

In the "gay" thread, Kirupa kept bringing up some points about the "dumbing down" effect in our public schools. I have some very strong feelings about this and some interesting perspective in that both my parents are educators: My dad is the Special Ed director, my mom was a Special Ed teacher, Gifted Ed teacher for a long time, and is now in charge of all the Gifted and Enrichment education in Toledo. Both have had experience in both "white suburbia" and the inner city.

Here are a few points Kirupa brought up, taken from the "gay school" thread...


Schools such as this are just adding to the great "dumbing down of society" that people complain about. We don't even have to go to a school to find that out. Threads in the help sections of this forum are littered with kids...and adults, who expect to learn without putting forth any effort or expecting one of us to do it for them.
Schools today do not encourage students to think. The writing abilities of most kids is abysmal with 1337 and hax0r being their predominantly used language. This gay high school is only adding to this by even blatantly wasting money that is normally wasted on a bureaucratic structure instead of the actual students




That's true also, and I'm helping to veer this topic off course, but they see people doing all the work for them at school. It's a clever thing called group projects for simple tasks like...cutting a hole in a piece of paper. They realize that if I have a dumb look on my face long enough, the teacher will have to give me an A. Doesn't the teacher know I have (insert a long list of excuses and clever acronyms for laziness)? Why should they expect anything different on the forums?

NOTE: There are some students with real disabilities, and they should be in their own classrooms with the specialized attention from trained special-ed teachers. I am referring to those who are too lazy to put forth an effort to learn.

Before I open up my LONG WINDED mouth about this issue which will focus on how much high school sucks... some other opinions first?

[Yates]

Yeah - there is a big difference between school and the forums. It's a lot easier to sit back and relax behind your computer instead of at school where your teacher is right there. The general attitude, in my point of view, originates from the school. Kids grow up being told one thing by their parents (if they are lucky to have parents interested in something besides earning more money), and seeing an easier, more lazy way at school. Its like a virus - it creeps in and slowly deterioirates your mind until you subconsciously begin to act like everyone else you see around you.

When such individuals like I mention above become parents, or teachers, or politicians, or anybody with great influence, society slowly starts to take a dip for the worse. When majority of the kids can't even recognize Iraq on a map or even the general location where it is, and when teachers themselves can't think beyond the elementary grade level they are teaching, the entire education budget might might be better served by burning a few hundred billion in a nice bonfire to help heat some outdoor swimming pool in the middle of winter.

The only solution I see to this is to get a standardized test for the TEACHERS to take. If the teacher fails this relatively simple test, fire the teacher. I also think that the job of principals and upper-level administration in a school should be an elected office with people voting for a principal every few years.

Lol, and when half the teachers failed, what then?

The problem with teachers is that its not a respected profession. It pays like crap and you don't have to know anything. You're rewarded by working at the same building for 40 years with a microwave in the teachers lounge.

Personally, sometimes I don't know whether to deeply respect teachers or mentally ridicule them for being so directionless in their lives to choose teaching as a career. It usually depends on the teacher.

In my opinion, education must be the #1 priority in a modern civilization like America or, as Kirupa put it, we'll collapse eventually from the "stupid virus." Stupid parents breed stupid kids, look at the inner city.

[turkey]

quote:
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Originally posted by kirupa
That's true also, and I'm helping to veer this topic off course, but they see people doing all the work for them at school. It's a clever thing called group projects for simple tasks like...cutting a hole in a piece of paper. They realize that if I have a dumb look on my face long enough, the teacher will have to give me an A. Doesn't the teacher know I have (insert a long list of excuses and clever acronyms for laziness)? Why should they expect anything different on the forums?

NOTE: There are some students with real disabilities, and they should be in their own classrooms with the specialized attention from trained special-ed teachers. I am referring to those who are too lazy to put forth an effort to learn.
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I agree with you, and I used to be exactly what you described a couple years ago. I was just saying that not all kids looking for the easy way out on the forums are like that in real life. It is just that it is easier for them to ask for so much when they don't have do ask in front of someone's face.


__________________

[kirupa]

Like I mentioned briefly in the previous post, there needs to be accountability (yes, I used the "a" word.) The only real solutions I see to the problems facing the education system are:

a. Make the job of principals and other high-ranking officials an elected office. The current system of "if they don't put the school under federal control, let's keep them" won't work. Reward those who work hard and get rid of those who don't. "Either you are with us or against us" should apply to this education system also.

b. Make the teachers take a test to assess their competency. You can't expect teachers to teach students on a topic that they themselves don't know about. If the teachers don't pass the test, fire them. The teacher can take advantage of the low-cost community college education and re-learn anything that he/she doesn't know and re-apply to teach again. If students can't locate Iraq on a map, more than likely their teachers can't either.

c. Just because a student didn't pass to the next grade, it doesn't mean that his parents or local community leaders have to find something about that student as an excuse for the school to "single" that student out and file a lawsuit forcing the school to pass that student to the next grade. Getting an education is a PRIVILEGE - it's not an episode of the Weakest Link where sub-par performance will get you promoted to the next round or grade.

d. The Federal and State governments should stop wasting their money when the fundamental system is flawed. It's like trying to clean a road with muddy water. Unless the problem is solved, pouring more money is only encouraging this dying education sytem of the US to continue in its self-destructive path. How many thousands of dollars more should the US spend per student for diminishing test results, limited writing ability, disability to communicate on an intellectual, ignorant of everything around them, etc? Basically, "Teach the children how to think - they will learn for life." (....submits this line to a fortune cookie manufacturer located in North Dakota.)

If the above steps are implemented even to a partial degree, the state and federal governments will save a lot of money from having to spend on jails, welfare, rehabilitation, healthcare, etc. Why? Educated people usually become productive members of society - not society's dependents. Almost every single issue discussed in this forum or on the news, could have been eliminated by not only an educated society, but an educated society that knows how to think.

Now, the last point in my rant, the money that is saved should be spent on increasing the salaries of the competent teachers and others on a ratio based upon their performance on their standardized tests. The teachers who score higher should get a bigger increase in their salaries, but EVERY teacher or instructor will have a base salary that is higher than what it was previously in our current system.

At this point, for the level of education teachers acquire, they are among the lowest paid of anybody. A teacher is a leader, and great leaders inspire great followers (students.) What incentive does a student who puts himself or herself through college have to give up a promising private-sector professional career in order to become a teacher? Not much. We cannot expect the education system right now to work with teachers who are not interested in teaching but are there because they simply never grew-up or matured beyond their high-school life.

The few who take an idealized stance and teach for the sake of bettering the lifes of the students at their own expense should be rewarded greatly....by having their salaries increased to the level someone would make if they were to work in a private company; which becomes feasible because of the money society saves from reducing the numbers of criminals and social dependents currently will be more than what any tax increase, upturn in the economy, discovery of an island full of platinum, etc. will generate.

The US and many other countries (this problem isn't isolated just to the US) may have a high literacy rate, but the ability of the students to think in an efficient and logical manner probably falls below that of countries who probably do not even have schools.

Cheers!
Kirupa :rambo:

[turkey]

I completely agree with you about the salaries. If teachers were paid decently then more qualified people would become want to get in to the field.

[kirupa]

Yates - I agree with the salary point you make about the teachers. There is no real incentive besides job security for anybody who has a good education to become a teacher.

Also, if half the teachers fail the test, they shouldn't be teachers. Being taught incorrectly is worse than never having been taught at all....just look at the terrorist camps in the middle east.

[RussianBeer]

Yeah, we need those terrorist camp teachers!

[Yates]

Here’s what is so frustrating about public schools and HOW to fix them:

Not to pick on Kirupa, who has some excellent points and I pretty much always agree with, but I’m going to use his post as a spring board:


Make the job of principals and other high-ranking officials an elected office. The current system of "if they don't put the school under federal control, let's keep them" won't work. Reward those who work hard and get rid of those who don't. "Either you are with us or against us" should apply to this education system also.

The School Board membership is already an elected position, at least in Ohio. In terms of a school district, principals are actually quite far down the pecking order (most notably in urban districts.) In Toledo, the school district just tried to pass a renewal levy and it failed with only 17% of people even bothering to vote: 45% to 55%. Imagine trying to hold elections, no, imagine trying to even find people to run for such a crappy job like being an inner city school principal. Few would run, even fewer would vote, it would be expensive, and it would discourage a lot of good potentials that don’t want to put up with all the political hassle.

To reward good teachers, you first must evaluate their performance. This costs money and is difficult to do for two reasons: one, how do you measure the effectiveness of a teacher compared with other teachers when they have a completely different demographic range of students? And two: they’re unionized. Have fun firing people for hard to prove reasons like “job performance.” Besides, who will replace them? Pay for the costs of hiring new teachers?


Make the teachers take a test to assess their competency. You can't expect teachers to teach students on a topic that they themselves don't know about. If the teachers don't pass the test, fire them. The teacher can take advantage of the low-cost community college education and re-learn anything that he/she doesn't know and re-apply to teach again. If students can't locate Iraq on a map, more than likely their teachers can't either.

Teachers already need to test their competency. In Ohio, you need a 4-5 year degree AND pass a teacher exam for certification.


Just because a student didn't pass to the next grade, it doesn't mean that his parents or local community leaders have to find something about that student as an excuse for the school to "single" that student out and file a lawsuit forcing the school to pass that student to the next grade. Getting an education is a PRIVILEGE - it's not an episode of the Weakest Link where sub-par performance will get you promoted to the next round or grade.

I agree up to the part of “privilege.” In America, good education is a right and a necessity service of society, not a privilege. Good roads aren’t a privilege. Clean water isn’t a privilege, and neither is education. Otherwise, the schools are JUST FINE the way they are, because technically, the students are owed nothing, and anything better is a bonus.

Finally, about the dirty water and thinking comment, I agree. But the solution, in my opinion, lies in the expectations we have for ourselves. I strongly believe that people live up or down to whatever is expected of them. What do we expect of urban students? Nothing. We congratulate them for just showing up to school. I remember my mom telling about a school principal (who was black) reprimanding a teacher for counting a student tardy. The excuse? The black kid was on “black time” and didn’t have to be on time.

Well, I’m spent for now. This is such a huge issue, and to be frank, I don’t know how and can’t solve it. I can say that our schools --our society-- expect so little, and that’s exactly what they’ll continue to get. The reason Asians and upper class private schools have better students is because Everyone Expects them to be Better, Work Harder, and be Smarter. Are you telling me inner city kids are just stupid and lazy? Because that is what the statistics say. Inner city black and Hispanic kids: stupid and behind other demographics in every category. That’s what the numbers say. I don’t believe it. They just are living to whatever we expect.

And don’t give me “oh, but they’re poor blah blah blah.” Dirt poor Asians come to America, get to work, and put other demographics to shame.

Ask me why I don’t like “liberalism”, I dare you.

One more thing: in Toledo, there is a program called “Boost.” It takes the top percentage of kids from inner city schools and tries to fill gifted percentage quotas (which is, I believe, %5 of the students are statistically gifted) However, often the program can’t even be filled because you have to have at least an 80% on a reading proficiency test. Also, only about 2% of blacks are defined as “gifted.” But the other 3% gets in and dilutes the gifted program because quotas have to be filled. And they then drop out because their grades suffer. The program is very expensive and shows no significant results. But… it looks good. But hey, it’s not FAIR for those lazy kids not to get in the SMART SCHOOL. So they let them in ANYWAYS, and they learn BE STUPID, because SOMEONE has to fill the quotas!

[kirupa]

Yep, I am referring lagely through hearsay and what I see in the news, for I never really had to suffer through such an education system because I was quite fortunate to live in a nice area with an excellent educational system. Inner cities are pretty much the way you describe it, and I didn't figure in the costs of running for an office like principal. I meant to include a line about the teacher unions, the extensive paperwork, the duration of "scrutinizing" a teacher, etc.

To take it beyond what you wrote (and I agree entirely to almost all of your points), good behavior, promptness, morals, etc. are largely acquired by observing your parents. Not to pick on inner city blacks and hispanics, but when a child grows up in an environment surrounded by drugs, violence, drunkenness, broken homes, poverty, etc., the last thing the child is interested in is an education.

Many immigrant cultures do well because they still have some core values that they adhere to strictly. They don't subscribe to the, if it doesn't feel good or if it isn't easy, it isn't worth doing. Or my favorite, the answer isn't wrong, just a different way of looking at the right answer.

....wonders when murder becomes a creative form of self-expression :)

[Yates]

I don't know... the whole issue just seems so overwelming and saddening....

There really isn't too much say that changes that. :(

[kirupa]

Yep, there are only a few solutions but those solutions are so entrenched through numerous chains of bureacracy that, if one link should break, all of the work attempted by reformers would be lost with further change almost impossible.

The system is like an infectious bacteria - if a series of methods don't work, the bacteria becomes stronger and immune in order to make sure it survives.

[Yates]

Agreed. Nice metaphor.

[grandsp5]

Did you guys/girls hear about the NJ superintendent who failed the high school literact test for the third time and said the skills it represented were not needed in his job. Idiot

[Yates]

Haha, yah I did. I guess reading and writing isn't as important as we all thought.

I guess schools should just offer classes in real world skills like "sucking up" and "looking important" and "nintendo playing strategies" I'd say the above Superintendent probably did very well in 2 out of 3 of these classes.

[RussianBeer]

uh Yates, ummm........................its uh...
well......... your an idiot: Learn it in School!...

ahem... :sigh:



... :P

[Yates]

I hope you're being facetious... I:-)

[kirupa]

Hehe I think he is - the title makes it seem like you are calling everybody who reads this thread an idiot :b:

[Yates]

Ohhh, welll..... No, it's just being... I guess ironic would be the best word for it. The effect was because many schools treat students like they ARE idiots and teach to them as if they are.


:::::::DISCLAIMER:::::::

WHILE YOU MAY OR MAY NOT BE AN IDIOT, MORON, OR IGNORANT FOOL, THIS POST MAKES NO JUDGEMENT REGARDING YOU IN ANY WAY.

IN FACT, BY SIMPLY ACCESSING THE ORDERED FORUM, YOU ARE PROBABLY NONE OF THE ABOVE. THANK YOU, HAVE A NICE DAY.

[mjULTRA]

The main purpose of the public education system is to crank out the next generation of middle class nine-to-fivers. The most important thing that teachers teach is that you are going to hafta get used to doing things that you dont want to do, in order to survive in this modern world. (These ideas have been paraphrased from a teacher who won The Teacher of the Year award for New York for three years...) I think these ideas are pretty much apparent at this point, but for those that dont know; this is the reality of the public school system..

[Yates]

Hm, makes sense... never really thought of it that way

[mjULTRA]

Its absolutely true.. How many people have been in a class where the teacher says something to the effect of, "I grade based on participation, so even if your not interested, you still need to be active in the class conversations in order to get a passing grade." According to teachers, you would think that the next best thing to being interested in learning, is the ability to fien interest...

Also, how many have participted in a class where the teacher actually gives points on whether or not you put the correct name and date on your paper??

Bottom Line: Schools are no longer places of learning; they are places of conditioning.

[kirupa]

I think that is too much of a broad generalization. There are many schools who do have incompetent teachers who do that, but most of the teachers I've had (and I went to a public school) not only encouraged partcipation, but graded based on the depth of knowledge each student exhibited in the participation.

It also depends on whether the schools and the students take advanced level courses such as AP or IB.

They are places of conditioning because the primary focus on education has shifted from the quality of education to politically correct issues like what to call "freedom fighters" and whether the pledge of allegiance should be recited.

The academic standards in all schools are being dumbed down so the kids can play their sports and do everything else besides try to focus on an education. For some reason, it is the parents that whine and complain when a school board decides to make the material the students learn a little bit more difficult or beyond the 9-5 droid mode.

Bottom line is - if you want to achieve your goals and do something useful in life, it's going to take hardwork and plenty of time. Math and other subjects do not become instantly understandable at the click of a mouse. It's called reading and studying - something which most of today's children do not understand.

They can't even find Iraq on a map :thumb:

[prstudio]

We have a saying around here at work, and I'm sure it applies to this day and age of school children.

"You can only Google so far..."

Very nice response K!

[kirupa]

Originally posted by Majeye
The main purpose of the public education system is to crank out the next generation of middle class nine-to-fivers.
It's not entirely the public education system that is the problem. It is the parents, the kids, and the MTV-like culture. The public schools ARE what we make of them, and hence the term public in their name.

There is no way to have a conducive learning environment without discipline. Of course, the moment a teacher scolds a student for being disruptive, one of the following may happen:

a.) become a race issue
b.) civil liberties issue (1st amendment guarantees the right of the child to swear)
c.) the school has no right to discipline a child - it's the parents' job after all
d.) let's dig some dirt on the teacher and get him fired
e.) let's file a lawsuit, force the school to go bankrupt

Too many non-education issues hamper the progression of schools. Add this to the fact that illegal immigration strains public schools with a large number of non-tax paying, non-English speaking kids, I'm just surprised at why the school system hasn't collapsed yet :)

[Yates]

You can only Google so far...

WHOA! Let's not say things we can't take back!

Oh man, if I was stranded on a deserted island, and I could only play sea-shell chekcers with one other inanimate object, I would definately choose a printed screen shot of the google homepage.


As for Kirupa, I think you were lucky. Many students (all I've ever talked to that go to school in NW Ohio, excluding other places) agree that with one or two exceptions, teachers simply want compliance.

I even have a true life story!

But you will have to listen to it later, because I'm at work, and I just realized that this may take more than the 5 minutes that I give myself to break away from code... :)

[kirupa]

Oh no doubt about it - I did get quite lucky to be placed in a area with an excellent school system. There are also many from other areas as I've found from talking to various students around campus. It's just not the majority :)

[mjULTRA]

Yeah but Kirupa, everyone you talk to worked hard in school to get to the college that you are at now (i forget where, is it MIT?).

Wherever it is, you are surrounded by successful students.. Im talking about the average high school student. My point was that if a student is not capable or interested in learning, they can get a passing grade if they show up, sit down, and shut up, even if they can't find Iraq on a map. The learning is secondary to the conditioning.

I repeat: The main purpose of the public education system is to crank out the next generation of middle class nine-to-fivers.

This is not the parents, or Mtv who decided this. This has been the purpose of the public school system since the beginning, and it was clearly stated by the people who were setting it up... I believe one of the Rockafeller sons was a part of this... i forget which one though...

For more proof of this, note that most of the rich elite politicians send their children to private schools, and not public schools. Remember when the Clinton's were saying that there is nothing wrong with Americans public schools, and then sent Chelsea to a private school?? I understand that she's a high profile student, but talk about a mixed message...

I agree with you about being thankful for the education that you get, when it could've been a lot worse. I was fortunate enough to get an Inter-District Transfer so that i could attend a High School that was Academically superior to the one that was in my school district, and believe me, it made all the difference in the world.. Fortunately i had a passion for learning, unlike the average high school student, who is usually disenfranchised by the time they get through Junior High...

[kirupa]

Yeah, it also depends on the students too though. Like you mentioned, you got more out of an education because you were interested in learning. In the school I went to also, there were people who slacked off and pretty much will end up being trained to work a 9-5 job.

I guess it all depends on what you want to make out of an education. Too many people here do not look at education as a privilege - just a nice socializing zone.

We could always make schools optional for all students, and those choose to go will end up employing those who do not!!

[APDesign]

I went to the best school in my area and frankly the curriculum was a joke, and the teachers were the punch line. I had passed every computer class available to me by the time I was a senior, including ones that I "made up" as independent studies classes. The options available to me as far as learning about what I wanted to do for the rest of my life we horrible. In programming class we learned QBasic, yes.... QBasic. And that was the most advanced programming class available (and this was when i was a freshman, I graduated in 2003.) In my Graphic Communications class our teacher tried to teach us HTML out of an "HTML For Dummies" book, and she still didn't understand the concept of "frames" enough to teach us. I more or less became the teacher in that unit. There are other classes not worth mentioning like Microsoft I & II where we learned how to type and read out of a book while we copied stuff into word. At least all these easy classes gave me time to learn flash and other things that I was actually interested in. If there is one thing I figured out in school, it is that if I want to learn something I better teach myself.

I also agree that the standards for teachers should be much higher... I mean these are the people teaching the new generation, the future depends on them to educate the children.

~APD

[Yates]

Ever heard of True Basic? Probably not. That is what we learned in programming. Which was only offered for one semester.

True Basic, by the way, is an application for Mac that you cannot compile or interact outside of the script running application. Of course, you can't try to do anything more complicated than a sqare, or the script runner will lag terribly.

[[m]]

I don't know the exact situation over there in the us, but i got a good feeling i know the jist of it.

First of all: the brains of anyone who says that school needs to be seen as a priviledge needs to be sanitized and reïnitiated.

School is not a priviledge. It's the law.

My view is this: If you need to learn (to progress in life and by the law) why not make it interesting? Everyone likes to learn, especially when they're young.

What's wrong is not the students, but the learning institution. Some people can learn the best in groups and some old guy telling them to read their ****s off, others can cope and the third can't. They need a hands-on approach, see it, feel it.

You can learn how too cook from a book, but it's much easier to do it with a stove and a pan.

Those people who won't learn in the present situation just lacks interrest. And when you're bored, the worst thing to do is to yell at them and say that they can't go to school anymore, thusdiminishing their chances significantly to have a normal/good life.

The present institution just can't cope with all the different needs of different students.

[Yates]

Why was this ALSO moved to random? Who the heck is moving these, these have have been in ordered for like 2 weeks. And they are about the status of public school systems.