Web Design company layout

[negativecreep]

Hey guys, I'm starting a local web design and it solutions company with a buddy of mine. We have been playing around with ideas and this is an initial draft we have come up with.

http://www.voodoocreation.com/arottenmind/sampleimg/DraftLayout.png

Any ideas?

[Voetsjoeba]

It's .. eh .. it's pretty terrible. Your header looks like it was made in WordArt, and the gradients even predate the 1998 sites. I'd get a good look at today's webdesign standards and start over.

[Zaiah]

Not sure which group or market you are trying to target, but the colors are too harsh if you ask me.

[duncanhall]

Yeah, don't want to be too discouraging, but it really, really doesn't cut it. Without wanting to get too personal, what exactly qualifies you to start a web-design business when you aren't really that hot at designing? I'm not trying to have a dig, it just bugs me when I see all these "web-designers" churning out horrific sites, for horrific prices, simply because the customer doesn't know any better.

It's quite possible you and your colleague are fantastic developers, in which case, make that your selling point and get someone else to do your design work.

Anyway...


Font choices are fairly horrible. Simply writing your company name in a "wacky" font doesnt cut it. And the console style text looks out of place in pretty much all places except for on a console/command line.
I generally try and avoid using #000000 black on websites as it can be just a bit too stark sometimes. Try #252525 or even #111111;
Lose the gradients.
Pop-up menu box should have a bigger margin between its top edge and the bottom of the header.

[negativecreep]

Wow its that bad eh? Well damn, back to the drawing board.

I'm getting into because I love to design stuff, and I will make money off of it. And after all, practice makes perfect. :D

Any actual tips on how I can make it better, and keep in mind this is only a draft.

[Zaiah]

Yeah, don't want to be too discouraging, but it really, really doesn't cut it. Without wanting to get too personal, what exactly qualifies you to start a web-design business when you aren't really that hot at designing? I'm not trying to have a dig, it just bugs me when I see all these "web-designers" churning out horrific sites, for horrific prices, simply because the customer doesn't know any better.

It's quite possible you and your colleague are fantastic developers, in which case, make that your selling point and get someone else to do your design work.

Anyway...

Font choices are fairly horrible. Simply writing your company name in a "wacky" font doesnt cut it. And the console style text looks out of place in pretty much all places except for on a console/command line.
I generally try and avoid using #000000 black on websites as it can be just a bit too stark sometimes. Try #252525 or even #111111;
Lose the gradients.
Pop-up menu box should have a bigger margin between its top edge and the bottom of the header.


Ouch!

That was still a little harsh. I understand what you are saying, but you have to start somewhere. It's not okay to take advantage of people, ever, I understand that also. I've been playing around with "designing" for almost a year now. I turned out two sites so far, neither I am happy with now that I've learned more, but again you have to start somewhere. And I don't have time or resources to quit my "real" job and go to school or take a low paying position at a "real" design firm to learn. So I have to do it on my own. And what better way to learn then getting out there and finding some business and working and learning through a project. You might want to tell your client that in the beginning. But I don't see anything wrong with it. Just my thoughts. But I do like how you tried to put a positive spin on and tell them to market their strengths. Which I agree with. Market your strong points and let someone else do the design or buy a template. Or even download a free one and jazz it up a little. It's not that creative, but at least you will have a clean and very marketable site. Good luck!

[CriTiCeRz]

Go to S&C in the forums and check other sites, you can check cool sites too. Check what's hot nowadays, because what you designed... I've never seen online. And I wouldn't think too much about money right now since you just started designing... but if that's what inspires you... then it works.

[acc]

... back to the drawing board...

do just that... I'm not too sure about giving tips to make something better when it needs to be totally reworked from the ground up... maybe research into design, colours, typography.... etc... just to get an idea of what your competition would be if you do want to make money out of this...

Though I'm a firm believer that creativity is second nature to designers. I often get people asking me to teach them Photoshop and Illustrator, as if learning these softwares in and out would make them creative, I tell them these are just tools to create what designers, illustators, etc. come up with.

as duncanhall said, if you guys are developers, you should make that your selling point.

[duncanhall]

Zaiah, I hear what you're saying, but...

"I'd maybe like to be a doctor one day. I don't have time or money right now to study, but I'm really enthusiastic and I know I can learn as I go. So, we'll just get some patients, you know, a few broken legs, maybe some tuberculosis cases, and we'll hash through. Sure, I won't be very good when I start, but that's ok, I'll get better with practice."

An extreme comparison I admit, but that's how much bogus web designers annoy me. (That wasn't an accusation at anyone).

I totally agree the best way is to "just do it". Get out there, start making websites, dreaming in code and waking up in Photoshop; but that doesn't mean you have to claim yourself as a webdesigner straight away and start accepting paying customers. I taught myself pretty much everything I know, and it's only after 6 years of practicing and messing about and screaming and learning that I'm anywhere near calling myself a 'web-designer'.

[Fl4SH'ER]

It's .. eh .. it's pretty terrible. Your header looks like it was made in WordArt, and the gradients even predate the 1998 sites. I'd get a good look at today's webdesign standards and start over.

ehh... i pretty agree with Voetsjoeba... you need to redesign this...
maybe get some inspiration from other sites but this is terrible...especially the font you used in the title... it's just terrible..

[acc]

^ well put (this was a comment to duncanhalls reply to Zaiah (http://www.kirupa.com/forum/member.php?u=72109))

And it works both ways, I'm a designer and only on my own did I start to learn ASP, PHP, XML and CSS because I realized how useful these are for web design, but I don't imply I'm a web programmer/developer, because I know I'm not. When clients say what they want, I tell them, I have a basic knowledge of the scripting that needs to be done, but I also tell them, if there's anything too big for me to handle, it will need to be outsourced. It saves me time, the client money, and the job is done right.

[negativecreep]

Alright lets all stop the flaming and trying to define what a web designer is etc. Thanks for the help and I'll let you guys gnaw on me when I get another one together.

[Fl4SH'ER]

^ IMO, go www.templatemonster.com and get some inspiration from there... you definitely need to change the style or if you want to keep it then be sure you got everything right because at the moment the site looks quite terrible and it needs lots and lots of work... Btw, will this be full flash or not ( you forgot to mention that ). Because if you are planing on continuing with this style then be sure you make in CSS or something else ( flash won't be the most friendly tool for such a site/style ).

Anyways, i wish you luck and do not forget to keep us up to date ;)

[Zaiah]

:} :}
Zaiah, I hear what you're saying, but...

"I'd maybe like to be a doctor one day. I don't have time or money right now to study, but I'm really enthusiastic and I know I can learn as I go. So, we'll just get some patients, you know, a few broken legs, maybe some tuberculosis cases, and we'll hash through. Sure, I won't be very good when I start, but that's ok, I'll get better with practice."

An extreme comparison I admit, but that's how much bogus web designers annoy me. (That wasn't an accusation at anyone).

I totally agree the best way is to "just do it". Get out there, start making websites, dreaming in code and waking up in Photoshop; but that doesn't mean you have to claim yourself as a webdesigner straight away and start accepting paying customers. I taught myself pretty much everything I know, and it's only after 6 years of practicing and messing about and screaming and learning that I'm anywhere near calling myself a 'web-designer'.

Point taken. I guess I need to cancel those business cards:diss: What if I called myself an apprentice webdesigner? lol. I do like your comment about outsourcing. I've been contacting students at the local college trying to pay them for some of the work I need done.

Maybe he could just call himself a "webmaster"

Main Entry: web·mas·ter
Pronunciation: 'web-"mas-t&r
Function: noun
Usage: often capitalized
: a person responsible for the creation or maintenance of a Web site especially for a company or organization

:}

[shane-c]

Well, it's all relative, I think... I, too, taught (and am teaching) myself XHTML, CSS, JS, PHP, MySQL, Flash/AS, Illustrator, PS, all that jazz... And I am still by no means where I want to be with it. That being said, I still think of myself as a designer and developer because I have done both, and I'm constantly improving myself in both. There is such a huge scope of talent out there, that I think it's almost impossible to specify when you are "truly a web designer" (ok now it's starting to sound like we're Jedi or something...) My first sites were hideous. I'm sure all of ours were. But I did my best at the time, and I kept improving, so I don't regret charging people money for them.

As far as natural creativity... Yeah, there's no way around that. This is commercial art, but it is art none the less.

I am not the best developer in the world, but I'm ok... I would never outsource, though. If I don't know how to do something a client wants, I obsess over it until I know how to do it, and do it well (without charging for "learning time" of course). That's the only way I see myself getting better, and I do want to get better.

What bothers me is when people think they're good, and they stop learning, and continue to do crap sites for people. There's nothing wrong with a beginner designer - if the client's happy, and you make money, then more power to ya... But we all know there is no "end goal" in this business... Every single one of us will always have something to improve. Where we are in our progress is all relative.

And I think the whole point of the S&C forum is to keep progressing, right? Nobody comes here to find out if they should be a designer or not - they come here to get better at something they already know they want to do.

[/RANT]

Ok, somebody please start slow-clapping now. Then the rest of you can slowly join in.

[negativecreep]

Well, it's all relative, I think... I, too, taught (and am teaching) myself XHTML, CSS, JS, PHP, MySQL, Flash/AS, Illustrator, PS, all that jazz... And I am still by no means where I want to be with it. That being said, I still think of myself as a designer and developer because I have done both, and I'm constantly improving myself in both. There is such a huge scope of talent out there, that I think it's almost impossible to specify when you are "truly a web designer" (ok now it's starting to sound like we're Jedi or something...) My first sites were hideous. I'm sure all of ours were. But I did my best at the time, and I kept improving, so I don't regret charging people money for them.

As far as natural creativity... Yeah, there's no way around that. This is commercial art, but it is art none the less.

I am not the best developer in the world, but I'm ok... I would never outsource, though. If I don't know how to do something a client wants, I obsess over it until I know how to do it, and do it well (without charging for "learning time" of course). That's the only way I see myself getting better, and I do want to get better.

What bothers me is when people think they're good, and they stop learning, and continue to do crap sites for people. There's nothing wrong with a beginner designer - if the client's happy, and you make money, then more power to ya... But we all know there is no "end goal" in this business... Every single one of us will always have something to improve. Where we are in our progress is all relative.

And I think the whole point of the S&C forum is to keep progressing, right? Nobody comes here to find out if they should be a designer or not - they come here to get better at something they already know they want to do.

[/RANT]

Ok, somebody please start slow-clapping now. Then the rest of you can slowly join in.

That was very well said. I think people are getting too elitist round here.

[jeffonfire]

I should not even be saying bad stuff about it cause mine are bad too but its bad.

[hybrid101]

lots of work to do dude, it's pretty horrible in a standard aspect. the blurs are overused, the header is strange, but you could do well with the current color scheme;)

[Cello]

Like said before - research. Any client who is looking for a design company needs to feel inspired/assured by your website. Word 2007 can produce better effects at a touch of a button - you need to work out how your skills add value to someone just buying Word.

Research, research, research. Then research some more. See techniques and work out how to do them yourself. Understand the fashion of colour. The trends in design. Be creative with typography.

There's no reason for you not to be successful but I truly can't see you winning any design work through this (draft) website.

[Pasquale]

Though you need to be creative, you also should keep with the trends, so you can match your competition.

[McGuffin]

That was very well said. I think people are getting too elitist round here.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but there's only one thing more annoying that a person who cannot give out constructive criticism, and that's a person who can't take it. I think the best thing you can do is take all the chatter in this thread and internalize it, and see how you can improve your design. This place is elitist? GOOD. Elitist is good. Great designers and developers should want to come here and crit other people's work. That's how people get better. And those people should be absolutely 100% grateful that an expert took the time to look at their design and give their opinions.

And yes, shane-c, the whole point of S&C is so the designer can progress, but shielding the designer from the good or bad reality of the situation isn't going to help anybody or anything.

Define a web designer/developer? A person who is proficient enough at their craft to complete a design/development project in a reasonable amount of time with solid graphics and/or coding. Usually means you either get paid for your work, or you could.

[shane-c]

^ I agree. But there is a distinct difference between what you're describing, and what actually goes on a lot of the time. There are undoubtedly people that come on here just to stroke their own ego.

Elitist can be a good thing, but not everybody is the "good" kind of elitist. There are a ton of really talented people here, and their advice is insanely valuable - that's why so many people come here for help. But I often see an attitude of "if you're not as good as me, don't even bother trying." Some people seem to go out of their way to be mean or funny, rather than just being helpful. Granted, the person who's work is being critiqued should be adult enough to just learn from what people are saying, and not be offended.

If I wanted football (American) advice, I would rather have some guy that plays college ball tell me "keep your knees bent more, and practice your agility" than have Steve Young say "you suck man, quit now". Point being, it doesn't matter how good you are at what you do, if you're just being mean it doesn't help anybody.

[eljefeloco]

Well spoken shane-c!

Here are some considerations that might help improving the curent design...

• I would try a more traditional font for the logo and reducing the drop shadow by at least half (if not removing it all together.

• Your colors are a bit to heavy -- try using a light pastel greyish blue for the gradient.

• For the navigation, you should have something that ties the poup menu to the selected item in the nav bar -- which item is selected? Item 1 or item 2?

• Also, you might try a lighter color than the background for your popup menu, and outlining it with a subtle drop shadow. That would give the illusion that it lives on top of your background. Currently it looks like the menu is cut out of the background (if that makes sense)

• Finally, I wouldn't call so much attention to the copyright/footer information. No one usualy cares about that stuff, so I would make it much more subtle and move it out of the content area.

hope that helps.

[chrisclick]

its... erm... terrible.

The colours just dont click... the gradients are ugly and overused plus the pop out navigation colour is bad, and the overall font used is more of a command promt font and not suitable for webdesign.

[doctor_funk]

"...and I will make money off of it"

Here's a tip, forget about making money first, don't even think of money when designing. Focus on what you feel passionate about in design, start developing concepts, then take one of the concepts that you feel most attached to, and start your design in pencil on paper first. When designers start focusing or even thinking remotely about money, the design either becomes a copycat design, or something completely uninspired. I'm not even going to comment on what you presented above, I just want to share some insight into the design process.

Have you taken the time yet to see what other people are doing with their websites? Have you had a look at any of these sites yet?:

http://www.happycog.com/

http://www.andybudd.com/

http://www.shauninman.com/

http://www.subtraction.com/

Experienced designers and beginners all look to these guys once in a while when designing sites. Consider research before action, and passion before money.

[Fl4SH'ER]

Here's a tip, forget about making money first, don't even think of money when designing. Focus on what you feel passionate about in design, start developing concepts, then take one of the concepts that you feel most attached to, and start your design in pencil on paper first.

^ ok, i think that's one of the few smart things you said till now ! :thumb:
@ negativecreep: just do what doctor_funk said ! Gather experience first, you can think about the money and all that crap much later on...

[Pasquale]

You dudes should keep the ninja-text-fighting to a minimum, the mods won't be happy, and I'm pretty sure debates are pretty much a no-go cause they turn into flame wars.


Bash it out on IM and then send us logs or something.

'tis a forum for showcase and critiques. I totally agree with a lot of the stuff you dudes argue about but recently I have noticed a spike.

[Fl4SH'ER]

^ duh, zorry, my post was more of a compliment then flame... no flame intention from my side... i'm cool... :rock:

[doctor_funk]

No flame taken, no mod required.

[negativecreep]

Haha damn, this thread is starting to get pretty funny. Thanks for all the constructive help from everyone who cared. I have updated the design a lot since that was a draft and I am really starting to like it as it takes more shape and gets more depth. I would post it but then I'd get all the colour and gradient stuff blah blah. I like the colour and the gradients :) Anywho like I said thank you for all your constructive criticisms.

[doctor_funk]

Well, do we get a link to see a little progress thus far then? I promise no blah blah. Just curious about how the updates are going. For programming, if you're not planning on using Flash, there are some useful CSS links here:

http://www.dezwozhere.com/links.html

[negativecreep]

Alright, I'll put my life on the line again.

http://www.voodoocreation.com/arottenmind/site/index.php

Still a lot of work to be done, but you have to admit its looking better. Again, any feedback will help a lot thanks.

[shane-c]

That is looking better. One thing I notice right off the bat is that your gradients above the footer and around the menu are really too bold... You might try toning them down a little to make em more subtle. The menu text is a little hard to read, too.

[ludwigortiz]

Hi all,

I dont want to Step on anybody's toes as i am new to this forum. But it is clear that this person is looking for an opnion and that is what they are getting.

Let's get down to it. Its is not going to cut it in the design field. It needs to be more modern and lacks any signs of any particular design deciplines. And is evident that they have a long ways to go from the other users here that are very accomplished and experience.

But moving forward. I comend that they had the courage to put their site up to the firing line and is willing to ask for help.

The best advice i can give you is to look at these sites daily and see what you like of the sites featured here. As they are all award winners in their own rights and have something to offer.

Here is the list.

www.cssremix.com
www.moluv.com
http://www.smashingmagazine.com
http://www.internettinyawards.com
http://www.lookom.com
http://www.newstoday.com
http://www.linkdup.com


and for COLOR


http://www.logoorange.com/color/color-codes-chart.php


Dont take everything in at once... It can be discouraging. Take your time and find a style that works for YOU. Then you will come up with something you will realy shine in.

Good luck!

[ludwigortiz]

try to find a good background too..

Maybe a complimentary color or repeating pattern.

you are covering the whole screen with one color and it makes me want to look away.

[Pasquale]

^ duh, zorry, my post was more of a compliment then flame... no flame intention from my side... i'm cool... :rock:


No flame taken, no mod required.
Hey now. I love you guys too.

[jeffonfire]

Not too bad almost good!:hugegrin: :hugegrin:

[doctor_funk]

See! That wasn't so bad. You did make a lot of progress. I don't care so much about the quality of your design as much as I'm interested in what your concept is. The concept is the basis of all design.

[DDD]

I'm getting into because I love to design stuff, and I will make money off of it. And after all, practice makes perfect. :D


I dont know if this has been said after all I stopped reading after I read this and saw the site in question.

Your motivation seems a bit diluted here. *edit* I decided to remove my whole philosphical spill */edit* Not the time nor the place.

I do hope you got what you need to set you on the right track.

[joran420]

the new one he posted is a whole heck of a lot better...still not there...but better

[doctor_funk]

Doubt he'll change his mind on the money thing. For people posting here, I hope they understand why Kirupa is free and not a charge service. It's free because, like the rest of us, we're not in it for the money. It's all about the glory of creating something great and earning recognition. Not to mention personal satisfaction for achieving something that sometimes takes months if not years of effort. If in the end, the advice and tutorials here help you land a job, great. However, don't forget why we're here, reading these tutes and writing these threads. We're here to guide you to be a better designer/programmer/thinker.

[negativecreep]

I'm in computers to make a living, hence I need to make money of off it. I don't see why you guys are even talking about this. Obviously I want to become a better programmer and designer, I love doing it. Don't we all want to make a living doing something we love? Anywho, more revisions on the way for those who care.

[doctor_funk]

So you consider yourself more proogramming oriented? Our comments are meant to guide you to better design, that's all. If you want the straight dope, fine. No one's going to pay for blue gradients and 80's styled typography, unless you're aiming at some kind of niche punk rock/commodore 64 group. Making a living is fine, but please do some research into design. I think some people, including myself, already posted some strong references.

[DDD]

I'm in computers to make a living, hence I need to make money of off it. I don't see why you guys are even talking about this. Obviously I want to become a better programmer and designer, I love doing it. Don't we all want to make a living doing something we love? Anywho, more revisions on the way for those who care.
We all love to do what we do and if money comes great. But you came across as almost like you heard there was money in design so I think I am going to give it a try.

But one thing you will notice here, that good or bad, the responses you get here are for the most part from people that are passionate about what they do. So you should take it as face value. We have a good lot of helpful and knowledgeable people here. They just dont always say what you want to hear. but dont let that you discourage you about participating here. This place was instrumental in me growing as a developer/designer. And it was a bumpy ride.

I am one of the ones that want to see your next round of designs....btw.

Oh yea I mirror most peoples sentiments about the design and what you can do to make it better. Sorry I turned this into a lecture.

[negativecreep]

Ya you guys have been helping a lot. Thanks

[Cello]

negativecreep - we do care by the way :)

Which app are you using to generate the mock-up? How long have you been using it? If it's Photoshop, you can download great actions from the adobe exchange which really help in the learning process.

Like a great carpenter or a scuptor - true skill (creativity) emerges in direct proportion to ability with the tools in the toolbag...

[jakattak]

Alright, I'll put my life on the line again.

http://www.voodoocreation.com/arottenmind/site/index.php


I'm a little late to this thread, but this this is much better than the first sample thrown up. My initial thought are below:

I think it's still too heavy on the gradients. The gradients on the sides are ok (though maybe a bit too dark), but I would seriously consider removing the blue gradients from the content area. They're becoming focal points in this design and unfortunately that's not what you want people to focus on. If you really want the gradients in there, consider removing the 2 above the nav and footer, and only keeping the 2 below the nav and footer. Also, think about making them a lighter shade, and make them only 5-10 pixels high.

I'm not a fan of the logo, but logos are a very personal thing. I think the important part is the fact that you're starting to create a brand identity. Consider simplifying it a bit. The V/C shape is very dominant and is the identifying feature, so try replacing the reamining text with a more conservative font. Also think of ways you can begin incorporating that V/C shape into other elements (could be something as simple as a silhoutte version of it to use in other situation, or on print, etc.)

You mentioned in the page that you're not sure about the blue background. I think the blue is fine. I'd avoid going with a textured background on this design. If you want to play around with some different shades, try desaturating the blue a touch instead of selecting different hues or white levels.

Don't put a Flash piece at the top unless there's a good reason. White space is not a bad thing. Don't be afraid of it.

Try to introduce a secondary color to this. With the blue/white/black you have currently I'd start looking at the orange/yellow space. I'm not suggesting you go crazy with a second color, just use it as an accessory to the blue. Somthing like using it for highlights or navigation rollovers or something similar should be plenty.

Last, consider dropping the black background behind the footer. It gives it too much importance right now, almost seems more focal than the content.

Hope that all helps.

[kdd]

I don't have much time to critique, but 2nd is much better than the 1st one! Keep it up! :thumb:

[Fl4SH'ER]

It's free because, like the rest of us, we're not in it for the money. It's all about the glory of creating something great and earning recognition. Not to mention personal satisfaction for achieving something that sometimes takes months if not years of effort.

OK, that is something i totally agree with ! Well said ! :fab::thumb2:
- regarding the second layout, well it looks like a Blog... And i still don't like that blue gradient, dunno, it just looks bad... Anyways, it is better then the first one but you still have a lot to do to make it look good.