Style VS. Design

[comicGeek]

Calling all designers and those who are planning to become one:

Read the article on Adobe.com Style VS. Design.

A must read! Though it really hurts :P

Style VS. Design (http://www.adobe.com/web/features/zeldman20000821/main.html)

[sintax321]

It is a hurtful truth.

[lostinbeta]

Originally posted by sintax321
It is a hurtful truth.

[comicGeek]

It REALLY HURTS!

Now that we know about what "normal" people think. What can we do about it? :beam:

I know! *SULK*

[eyeinfinitude]

That ariticle is true, usability is extremely important, but also keep in mind that not all designers are like that. Some will design differently for themself and when designing for a client.

When you're designing for a client, there are standards you'll tend to follow that will ensure that the site will serve its purpose and easy to navigate.

When designing for yourself, it's like contemporary art where anything goes.

A lot of my client work, to me, look extremely boring compared to what I'm use to but it's what the clients want and importantly, it meets their needs. As long as they pay me, I don't care how boring it looks.

[eilsoe]

take a peek at www.pnuc-inside.dk

that's ajob I did for my school, boring yes, but usable...

[eyeinfinitude]

That's not so bad eilsoe, actually looks decent. =)

[comicGeek]

Originally posted by electrongeek
As long as they pay me, I don't care how boring it looks.

Hahaha. That's right! I'm continouslly experimenting in combining usability and style. I don't want to take sides. I want to benefit from both worlds. I know this is possible. The main problem is acheiving the balance between style and design. The problem with most people (normal) is that they close their minds to new techniques and ideas.

:sigh:

I'm :block:ed

[Kitiara]

"This is boring, so here are some stripes and here's a drop-down menu, so you'll know I'm better than this stupid assignment." I think this guy's on to me... :sure:

[comicGeek]

hahaha. He's on to all of us! :P

[eilsoe]

have you ever looked at that idiot "usability expert"'s own webpage? It's hella ugly... I mean... EWW!!!

what's his name again....?

[Kitiara]

Jakob Neilsen...

And it's useit.org or something. He subjected his own site to his rating system and it scored like, 70%. :smirk:

[eilsoe]

He's probably danish... or swedish... jerkoff...


=)

[Kitiara]

I think he's just got a problem with his head...

He's got it stuck up his arse. :sure:

[eyeinfinitude]

hahah Kit could be pretty vicious. :P

[Kitiara]

Moi? :evil:

[eilsoe]

Evil missy :P

[Kitiara]

Well I feel I had a valid point... :)

[eyeinfinitude]

I think you have 2 points Kit, you forgot to count your left horn. :P

[comicGeek]

Originally posted by Kitiara
Jakob Neilsen...

And it's useit.org or something. He subjected his own site to his rating system and it scored like, 70%. :smirk:

Poor guy!

He's completely unhappy! :P

:whistle:

[Kitiara]

So many possible replies to that comment... :P

I'm in such a weird mood today. Maybe something to do with spending 2 hours stuck in a traffic jam on the M20... :sure:

[PierceG]

I don't see why there has to be this rift between Style and Design.
Have you ever read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance? In it the author talks not about a tradeoff between art and functionality, but about an integration of the two. Neither is sacrificed because both are an integral part of the final product. If done rightly, webdesign is both beautiful and usable, in neither order. That said, there's a lot people out there not doing it right. Me included, probably. Easier said than done.

Enhanced style adds to usability. It is easier to absorb information off a site that looks professional and cool. But lets face it, flash is an easy tool to misuse.

[comicGeek]

His site is usable, i'll give him that, but heck it's too difficult to read the text because of the mediocrely place background stripes! :P

[Kitiara]

Flash design basically boils down to two words:

Common sense.

[PierceG]

I like stripes.

[comicGeek]

I agree kit!

[Kitiara]

If people are going to be dozy muppets and make beautiful looking sites with mystery meat navigation, unending intro sequences and no real content or point, then they can't complain when someone says their site isn't useable.

Hello? McFly?!?

At least we are all sensible people. :)

[PierceG]

Same goes for people who make unaesthetic, black on while, ugly html, relentless information overload pages.
College lecturers are a good example. Obviously interested in web design but leave their own course pages a jumbled mess of ugly text and unordered links.
Sorry if I'm generalising any lecturers reading this.

[comicGeek]

lol

[Kitiara]

No, it's true... My web design lecturer at University (this was back in 1998/9 though) made the most hideous sites and slides and stuff. Truly appalling. Of course at the time we all thought it was fantastic.

In fact you know the battle with the ugly sites? My first website looked like those, and I was so proud of it... :blush:

[upuaut]

I certainly wouldn't be as harsh as Jakob is, but you all have to admit that there is a lot of crap on the internet. This guy is like Simon (simeon<g>) from American Idol.. he's right.. he just happens to also be an *** about it. Arogance does not invalidate opinion.

Anyway.. I think that everyone who seeks to design should read as many of these types of articles as they can.. even if it hurts to listen too.

[Kitiara]

Neilsen raises a lot of good points, he just manages to annoy 90% of web designers / developers while he's at it. )

[PierceG]

I would agree that everyone should read the article. The more information you have the better you can make critical decisions. Even if it's information you don't agree with. Both sides of the story, etc.
David: Of course there's a lot of crap out there. But there was plenty of crap before Flash became widespread too. Content can be just as irritating as design.

[comicGeek]

I kinda like kit when enraged! :)

[Kitiara]

Originally posted by Pierce Gleeson
I would agree that everyone should read the article. The more information you have the better you can make critical decisions. Even if it's information you don't agree with. Both sides of the story, etc. Agreed. If you know what's considered to be 'bad design' and 'bad usability' then you can try and avoid it yourself.

[upuaut]

oh I wouldn't say that Flash is the cause of bad design.. it's a lack of understanding of what "design" is, that has caused all the crap. :)

[PierceG]

Flash is not the cause of bad design. But it's an extremely powerful tool in the hands of a bad designer. Perhaps more powerful than it is in the hands of a good one. If you get me.

floating popup anyone?

[lostinbeta]

I agree, people talk about Flash like the program is bad for design, but it isn't, Flash opens up a new door to design that people take advantage of. It seems many people think the more animation you can do (no matter what useability is sacrificed) then the better your site will be, but that is never the case.

[reverendflash]

Flash is no more a bad design tool, than SUVs are the cause of all the accidents in the world...

People make bad HTML sites as well... They look nice, but don't function well... they have mystery meat navs as well, they just don't get the publicity Flash sites do.

That said, gratuitous animation, and general laziness is rampant amongst young web designers today. A lot of designers think that since they can do something, then they should (sound for instance).

this is one of my very sore subject... sorry for the rant...

Revhttp://www.aulman.com/rev.gif

[mariofan]

i think both style and design can be effectively balanced within any project.. but thats just me thinking

:m:

[pinx]

Originally posted by comicGeek
Poor guy!

He's completely unhappy! :P

:whistle:

no he's unhappy cause he probably doesn't get laid. and has his head up his arse, as kit said.

[Kitiara]

Which does make it rather difficult to get laid, admittedly... :smirk:

[pinx]

probably smells too.

[asphaltcowboy]

no way is Flash the cause of bad design. ridiculous. tbh, the nature of the internet is the cause of bad design. it's far cheaper and more easily accessible than say... print... or any other medium for that matter. it's a simple fact that whilst there might be one amazing new site that has everything with good usability etc, there are going to 1000's more that are ****, simple because it's so easy to publish to the web.

I wrote an article on this for my Foundation Course written assessment, about the relationships between form and function in web design - if anyone wants a read, lemme know. *cough* I got a distinction *cough* (<-- that said, I still don't think it's that great ;))

[comicGeek]

You're hitting the guy! :) good hit him harder :beam:

[noxious]

i think the key is to meet "halfway".

..i guess everything goes out of control when one goes extreme.. i mean ..excessively.. (hmmm.. im out of right words) ..okay, something that has to do with the "over" thing.. yes! OVER-doing things and stuffs, these and those..

[for general audience, let's meet halfway!]

leftover:
i do agree [if ever we want to go extreme], we can do it on our personal sites. And i do believe that's also a way of expressing ourself, our feelings, our views, our failures and diappoinments..andthe list goes on... and most importantly, developing oneself skills..(or whatever you called that thing) ..the personal sites is one's "wide room" for development!

[reverendflash]

well said noxious, however, if we make a personal site that is difficult to use, then the purpose of that site, even if it is design, has been wasted because visitors will leave with a bad taste of the site.

That is, after all, why we publish anything on the web afterall, for the visitors, isn't it?

I compare it to a business card that is difficult to read. It looks cool, but nobody can find your phone number or email, unless you point it out to them. How much good does the business card do for you, if your clients/freinds can't figure out what you do, or how to get in touch with you...

My view on this, anyway...

Revhttp://www.aulman.com/rev.gif

[noxious]

hahaa yes your pretty correct rev!

..anyway, you can place a special section on your personal site where you place your "extremes"! .. after all the overall effect will be only for you (your credibility)..solely for you! ..if they will not like your site.. huh huh poor boy!

[vts31]

listen. when it comes to clients follow the rules...if you want to get paid. other than that screw everything else. think for yourself and dont let random people tell you whats wrong or bad. you are the visionary. you decide. nuff said

[PierceG]

If you don't let the fact that people will be accessing your site affect your design approach, then just leave the thing on your PC.
Once you put something online, it is not entirely your anymore. You have a duty not to be misleading about your content, and to make the site in some way usable to the random user. Actually, thats not true, but I think you have a duty to warn the random user what they might be facing into.
Sure, create whatever crazy weird thing you want, but put a page in front of it saying "beyond this is some crazy stuff. Be warned".

[Kitiara]

I reckon that if you're doing something for a client, then you pretty much have to abide by their wishes. You can offer advice if you think they're going in the wrong direction style / design / usability wise, but you can't force them.

Your own stuff... If you like it then it is really up to you. But you have to remember that other people aren't going to know it inside out like you do. :)

[cybertao]

Comparing the the design and style of one of macromedia's page's (http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/mx/dreamweaver/articles/tableless_layout.html ) to one of adobe's pages shows shows an interesting contrast.

Jeffery Zeldman states in this article style vs design (http://www.adobe.com/web/features/zeldman20000821/page2.html)

Great work is being created in Flash (SWF), and it's receiving overdue recognition
He makes good points about the problem of over doing it with bandwidth eating style but he's totally out of context. I surf the net through hundreds of pages a day from enterprise's websites to tiny personal one. All the major sites are fast to download on my 56k and I'm happy about the style and design. There's no problem out there with design. It's evolving very nicely hand in hand with swf technology.

Is adobe happy about the success of macromedia though? Is this guy happy about his own success as a web-designer? I think not.

[noxious]

you hit him again.. i mean THEM! heheee.. harder please! :rambo:=)

[sintax321]

Originally posted by noxious
hahaa yes your pretty correct rev!

..anyway, you can place a special section on your personal site where you place your "extremes"! .. after all the overall effect will be only for you (your credibility)..solely for you! ..if they will not like your site.. huh huh poor boy!

Alot of sites that have a big amaizng site that style is put over design usualy have a secondary site you can load form the splash page. This second site focuses on design. It is usualy minimal with very little wow factor and very quick and easy to navigate. This is a deffinet way to go.

[comicGeek]

Originally posted by cybertao
Is adobe happy about the success of macromedia though? Is this guy happy about his own success as a web-designer? I think not.

I think not too! But Adobe have great successes in other areas especially in graphics editing. The author, I think, is just overwhelmed by the hype that Flash made with its success. He doesn't know how to use the software. He closed his mind to new methods. He loves the old ways of doing things because he knows he's good at it. Now with Flash new designers are emerging with fresh ideas and better design. I think he's threatened. I think he used the following to come to a conclusion:


ourAgeGap = myAge - theirAge;
newDesigners = Flash + ourAgeGap;
imObsolete = true;
//What can I do about it
if(imObsolete != true){
trace("Do nothing!");
} else {
trace("Write about the usability issue!");
trace("Remove the source of the emergence of new designers!");
//Target Flash
}


Let's face it, technology obsoletes itself. Sooner or later new technology will surface bringing with them new and better users and designers. We will be at that author's position now! True designers are willing to accept that change. and in time they will learn them.

The question now is: Are we going to be like him? Or are we better?

:)

Cheers!

[PierceG]

comicGeek: I'm tired of the old, "we are better because we're younger and more dynamic thing". I dread to think that when I'm past my mid thirties I will be out of the loop, with no way back in except to sit and moan.
This guy isn't wrong because he's older. He's wrong because he's wrong.

[upuaut]

Why is he wrong?

just wondering.

btw Pierce, I loved that you mentioned "zen and the art of..". they are all good books which help out in various area's of life. I'm a fan of "zen and the art of archery" myself. You are correct that style and design can be combined without a loss of either. The problem is of course that maybe 70% of the Flash stuff out there follows no rules of design at all, which is basicaly what the author is saying. I'm not sure how he's wrong about anything. A jerk? maybe.. but not wrong.

maybe I'm reading something different than the rest of you. :)

[comicGeek]

yeah I was just hitting him! No, no, that's just my opinion! :)

[PierceG]

Jeffery:
Many young Web designers — and let's face it, most Web designers are under 30 — view their craft the way I used to view pop culture. It's cool or it's crap. They mistake Style for Design, when the two things are not the same at all.


I guess I hope he's wrong about this. Actually I agree with many of the points he makes.

Oh, I mean, I know style is not the same as design. I'm saying I hope he's wrong about most web designers not knowing it. Ahem.

[upuaut]

lol.. fair enough.

you know this kind of thing might just not piss me off as much because I read all the design magazines and jounals I can find. I'm not expert on design.. but I'd like to think that I have a pretty good idea of it by now.

Take for example a site I did about 2 years ago for a friend of mine. I created a solid Flash navigation system which I liked, as well as my friends. Everyone thought it was extremely creative and useful. Well, everyone except our visitors. No one could figure out how to work it. We got complaints, I created a new (more traditional) navigation system. It just goes to show that style is in the mind of the beholder.. and can be interesting to a person or not, but if no one can figure out how something works then it's design is flawed. That's just a fact. It doesn't matter how easy something is to use for you.. it just matters if it serves it's purpose in the most efficient manner possible.

[upuaut]

Oh, I mean, I know style is not the same as design. I'm saying I hope he's wrong about most web designers not knowing it. Ahem.

I think he's right on the mark with that. I mean.. we added a "none of the above" vote to the Kirupa site of the week contest just because there were weeks where none of the submissions were worthy of the honor. Everyone and their mother is making web pages.. but a bare minimum of those have any formal or even self taught training in the field of design. I guess that's just my opinion though.. I really couldn't tell you how many there are..just seems to me to be a lot.

[PierceG]

A friend of mind does Graphic art for companies. Some interesting stuff, a lot of boring stuff, mortgage leaflets, etc.
Each time she's acked for a layout, she does three. She does an ordinary one. Not too functional, not to flashy.
She does a bog standard really basic one.
And she does an interesting one which actually stretches her talents and tries to incorporate something unusual.
She then presents all three to the client.
About 70% of the time they choose the bog basic one. And the rest of the time they choose the ordinary, middle ground one.

[upuaut]

Now that is a good policy to perform for your clients. At least you're giving them the options, and the limitations that they may be faced with up front. If they still want the unloadable mess of Flashy gismos.. well there's nothing you can do.. but at least you tried.

[PierceG]

the customer is always right. even when they're wrong.

[Kitiara]

Yeah, I always tend to do that here at work. They ask for a design and I do one boring, one middle of teh road, and one flashy.

Surprisingly I've had a good response. They generally want the middle one, but with some of the flashier bits incorporated, now they've realised the sorts of things that are possible. :)

It's kinda like opening their eyes to new options. :beam:

[sintax321]

Originally posted by Pierce Gleeson
the customer is always right. even when they're wrong.


How true. Right now i'm making a site at 900x600 pixels. And with fonts no smaller then 14. This site is going to be so **** big a blind person can read it lol. No matter how much pleading and reasoning we did with him he wanted it this way.

[asphaltcowboy]

Originally posted by Kitiara
It's kinda like opening their eyes to new options. :beam: I make no comments about Kit being an eye-opener ;)

[Kitiara]

Mornin' Asphalt. :)

Sintax - sometimes they just won't listen to reason. If I had a pound for everytime I've felt like beating my head (or theirs, actually) against a brick wall, I'd have... well, a lot of pounds. :)

[asphaltcowboy]

mooooooooornin' :love:

exhibition today, I should get ready and stuff!

Oh, and yeah, I like to come up with 2 or 3 designs for a client... maybe next time I should try and do a range of different potential sites (basic, flashy, crazy) as opposed to 3 bloody awful, gawdy pieces of crap!

w00t! ;)

[Kitiara]

But if your client likes bloody awful gaudy crap, then sometimes that's what you have to give them.

Then disassociate yourself as much as is humanly possible. :P

[asphaltcowboy]

hehehe, too true, too true! :)
are you gonna bunk work and come and see me in sunny chelsea?

:love:

[Kitiara]

The chances of my being able to skive off are minimal - I have my formal review this afternoon... Is there a paranoia smilie? There should be. :)

[asphaltcowboy]

:(

actually... wtf am I talking about? lool! firstly: it's not til this evening anyway... secondly, it's private view today. sorry, blonde moment. *cough* but there are still 4 other days when people can come and see it *cough*

ooh, excuse me! :)

[Kitiara]

Plug plug. :P

[asphaltcowboy]

no, it's just a bad cough... *cough*

sorry for hijacking! (w00t! go teh English!) :)

[Kitiara]

There ought to be a special thread for the English to **** around with... :P

[asphaltcowboy]

ye! Kirupa, English forum plz!

( for me, Soul and Kit.... to **** around with(?) oh my! :stunned: )

[Kitiara]

Did I say something funny? :P

That's a normal phrase round Medway. No innuendo intended for once. :)

[comicGeek]

:sure:

Back to the topic your two :+)

The best way to show your clients the possible designs you are going to give them, why not make a storyboard? That way if they don't like anything about the design you can just change it until they do! And when you start making the project they can pay you 80% of your fee!

You wont have to make 3 designs and end up only using one throwing away the rest.


:smirk:

[Kitiara]

I tend to keep hold of all the stuff that gets rejected and re-use it on other projects. :P Just because one lot of people didn't like it doesn't mean a different set of people won't.

I figure if the idea is a good one, you can always re-work it if it's close to another brief... :)

[comicGeek]

Sorry for spoiling your fun with asphalt awhile back kit! :P lol

[asphaltcowboy]

d*mn you comicGeek! d****mn you!

*shakes fist!



:P lol, np - I really ought to get ready... but.. but... 'Teh Kirupa has meh' :beam:

[vts31]

Originally posted by vts31
listen. when it comes to clients follow the rules...if you want to get paid. other than that screw everything else. think for yourself and dont let random people tell you whats wrong or bad. you are the visionary. you decide. nuff said

[upuaut]

Well I agree that if you don't care about getting paid, other's opinions shouldn't hold you back from anything vts, BUT that doesn't mean that you're going to be good at design ever. Listen to peoples constructive critisisms and learn from what they are saying, even if you're not going to make money. It doesn't mean you even have to follow their advice.. but yes, you should listen to it if you have any interest at all in making something functional as well as beutiful.

[vts31]

yeah i guess but how do you define good? is it asthetic beauty? is it a regergitation of design theory books? its all kinda subjective. i feel that anybody who keeps experiment will sooner or later derive the same conclusions every other designer makes. they develop an eye...they know what works what doesnt. obviously criticism/feed back is important but i meant "dont listen" in a more general sense.

[upuaut]

Asthetic beuty at least in the context of this thread is a style issue. Personaly, if you're not making money, your style in my mind, should be whatever you like. Style is subjective.


i meant "dont listen" in a more general sense

Fair enough then. You're right. Listen, but "don't let the turkeys get you down." as the saying goes. With me, I tend to judge how much something should be important to me by two factors. A) how many years, and what kind of years (ie education or work experience) has the author of the critique been in the business, and B) How constructive is the critisism.

Sometimes rude people say important things too. Sometimes nice people don't have a clue what they are talking about.

As for people discovering stuff on their own through trial and error.. well that's great wishful thinking. I'm not sure if I see it happen all that often though. More often someone gets it in their head that their work must be good because it's "subjective". In my opinion design is not really all that subjective. If something doesn't work, or is confusing, then any amount of astetic beuty does not make it better.

So at least in the area of design, "good" has been defined as that which serves it's function well. (I think. :))

[comicGeek]

So at least in the area of design, "good" has been defined as that which serves it's function well. (I think. :))

That's really the definition!

I've been thinking, so if we want to be good designers then we should stick to old ways of doing it? We shouldn't explore new ways, new ideas, new methods? I mean when you look at the work of people like the author, you can see that they only use very old methods. No animation, no CSS, underlined links....ETC.

It's boring.

I have read the article Web Pages that Suck and basically they don't want websites to have some mambo-jambo decorations in them. They want it to be clean and direct to the point. In other words they want it to be strict and without style. They want users to come visit their pages and put money in their pockets. They think that with new methods, we are just wasting bandwidth to unimportant, non-earning websites!

It's boring.

With the emergence of multimedia and the advancement in technology why should we stick to the old methods of doing it? We shouldn't have upgraded our PC, we should be using oil lamps instead....

Just my thought though! :x

[PierceG]

Something can be clean, direct and to the point in content, but still explore new methods of design.
I think if you do have content, tangable content, it should not be difficult to access, read or whatever. Unless you want it to be for some specific reason. It's still perfectly possibly to design new ways to display that content. You do not have to abandon clarity to indulge your creative site. You should not abandon clarity to indulge your creative site. That's just laziness.

[noxious]

Originally posted by david
It just goes to show that style is in the mind of the beholder.. and can be interesting to a person or not, ... ... it just matters if it serves it's purpose in the most efficient manner possible.

Wow! i like that david! "style is in the mind of the beholder!" ..and that is pretty right! ..sometimes the problem is not really the one who makes.. it's the "idiot-less fortunate users!" (opps) ..sometimes they just cant fathom what you are trying to show... that's why sometimes (or most of the time) we do stoop down just to feed the heck users..

[urbanscrawl]

Both the phrases - 'Style is in the eye of the beholder' and 'Good design is design that serves it's function well' are absolutely right. That's really saying something because there's really very little that you can be sure of when you are deciding how you judge somethings aesthetic value.

That style (or beauty) is in the eye of the beholder may seem obvious and might even come across to some as an irritating platittude. It's not. It reminds us that when you're working for someone else you have to take their perspective to a certain extent. Of course, if you're good you'll want to guide them, make them see things in a new light and perhaps even give them something they didn't expect. But if they don't like it, no matter how much you like it, at the end of the day it's not a style that works <i>for them</i>.

'Good design is design that fulfills it's function well' is, I think, closely related to how one decides whether one likes something or not. Personally I firmly believe that whether you think something is well designed or not has everything to do with whether it achieves what it was intended to achieve. If you have drawn a cloud and someone comes up and says 'Hey - great Poodle" - you may well have drawn a great Poodle, by chance, but it gives us no real insight into how well you draw Poodles, it only tells us that you think clouds are a really odd shape.

Again that may sound obvious, but the number of modern artists that approach art with no real intentions and that then later rely on the interpretation of others to give their art its value is shocking, and I think a poor way of evaluating art. Web design is the same - if you are setting out to fulfill a set of criteria, generally: 'display this information and make it look good' you can expend all your efforts to make the site look as modern, impressive and well designed, so long as you remember that you are also supposed to be 'displaying information', and that means clearly, as well.

[comicGeek]

Well said man!

I got this comment from a competitor during the 2nd Cebu Web Awards here in our place, he said, "This competition sucks! Why is it that we use Flash? Why is it that we compete only to make good layout? Why not let us make a page with log-in and a print button using HTLM and javascript?".

[Kitiara]

Because if you did that, everyone else would be up in arms. :P

Just be grateful you don't have to work with purple, orange and the Churchill dog. :P Although if we get bought out by Direct Line then it's red phones all round. :sure:

[comicGeek]

I'm grateful, I'm grateful :P

[Millad]

This guy is bord and a old man. !

HELLO its year 2003 :crazy:

Do you guys care what he said ?

[PierceG]

Originally posted by Blastboy
This guy is bord and a old man. !


Wow. Just wow.

I guess he is an old man. D*mn him. How dare he?

[Black_Lightning]

i believe this comes from a dirty harry movie (they used it in fallout 2 too somewhere): "opinions are like a**holes, everybody has them and they all stink". Lol just his way of saying that all opinions are subjective i guess(or well most, some ppl seem to have no opinion of their own at all)

Having your own ideas is great. But if you want to only make your own things... stick to art/webdesign as a hobby. Only a select few of lucky ppl can make a living out of this by working out their own ideas, and most of the time they had to go through years of commercial assignments to get there. For all the rest there is only one law that counts, an ecomic law unfortunatly: "the customer is always right"

I've done quite a share of work for other people... most of the time i get cart blanche, which is really fun to do. But the bigger the window you can work in the bigger the chance you will have to start over.

[comicGeek]

Sarcasm is never nice! Let's be friends people! :)

[PierceG]

Sorry. But ageism isn't that nice either.

I plan on still being a thinking individual when I'm "old".

[comicGeek]

Me too! Let's just bite our tongue and keep the painful words to come out. at least until we can't hold it any longer! :)

[AnOraK]

i think everybody has said just about everything there is already?

but there is a fine line between the two...

when designing for a client the most important thing to bear in mind is their end user....

after all thats wot they r paying for...

but at the same time, we as designers/developers must have a sense of satisfaction in our work...

this is were it gets difficult....

most clients are like sheep and have to be led...

they dont know anything about the web and only want a site bcoz they "feel they need to have something up there"

it is our job to represent the client but at the same time be able to represent ourselves through our work...

this is the difficult part...

if you have understood the brief and interpreted it well, you should be able to do a crossover were you yourself are getting what you want out if it from an aesthetic point of view...

and your client will get a site that is user friendly, quick to download (even on a 56k which some ppl 4get) and gives them the opportunity to portray themselves as a fresh and dynamic company etc that u would want to do business with...

they r buying a marketing tool from you which in turn should become a marketing tool for yourself...

the work is your reputation and you have to ask yourself how much is that worth?

personally i put in extra hours into a project just to make it right for me as well as the client and they r not billed for it...

this is not being a martyr, but i would like for our clients to turn around and say that we did a good job, the feedback from their clients was good and at the end of the day everyone concerned was a happy bunny...

there is a lot of crap out there and we have all seen it or scoffed at it @ some point...

but there is also a lot of good stuff too that we can take inspiration from, learn from and move on...

the web is still a child and it is up to us to make it a better place for everybody....

whether that means at some point we have to bite our tongues as we say in our heads "THAT is going to look terrible and it WONT work"...

or we can step back and look and say "fek...that was me"

and feel good about it...

personally i am no expert in any field but i do have to question anybody who says that they r?

what gives someone the right to define a set of rules that everyone should pertain too?

what makes an expert?

is it THEIR opinion on how they think things should be done?

maybe JN has got his head up his arse coz hes looking for something that he might have missed and we really need to hear that bit of info?

flash is a great tool and if used properly it can convey much more than bells or whistles...

it's a shame that it gets such a bad rep sometimes...

but then again....

i'm no expert so wot the fek do i know?

[Black_Lightning]

Yes, some good points, maybe i put it a bit harsh and i kinda read to fast over some things in the topic so i repeated what was said.

You always put in something of yourself... and yes most ppl are sheep that must be led. In that case you can put a lot of yourself in it. which is nice. There are these cases where i the client just likes what you made and doesn't have extra wishes.

But there are the occasional clients that really know what they want. I had this client once: great logo with lots of potential, but you should add a line here here and here.... in my personal opinion the original logo was better. But at that point, if you want them to pay you.... you will have to do as you are told or he will go to someone who will.

It was only a small part of the design, i was fully behind the rest of the logo. But there are these moment you just have to go against your intuition because it's the clients choice.

So this probly gives a better idea what i was trying to say... ahwell, can't help it i'm not that good with words :)