my reason for keeping abortion legal

[reverendflash]

from MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.com/local/phlburbs/phl75249.asp?cp1=1)

...and these people were the best the county had to offer.

Sure these kids are alive, but they are duct taped to the crib, one even suffocated from it...


This kind of abuse doesn't even make the evening news usually...

Revhttp://www.aulman.com/rev.gif

[grimdeath]

i totally agree rev, i have 3 kids of my own 2 that i actually see and i dont know how can a person commit such atrocities to their own children or anyone elses it sickens me, we live in a cruel world bro and we cannot change it we just gotta make the best of it

[coyotekel]

I must say I'm torn on the whole abortion issue. I know someone (sad to say it) who is 18 and has a child and 3 abortions. Not sure how to feel about this. I mean on one hand she would be living on welfare with 4 children but on the other hand she is using abortion as a form of birth control. It just sickens me that some people (especially anyone I know) could consciously do that over and over and not be bothered in the least. :(

ps I am 27 and have 2 (planned) children.

[reverendflash]

My point Phil:

If abortion is illegal, then what do we do with all of the unwanted/not cared for children?

If this abuse is going on when people can abort legally, just think about how much more stress we put on the system.

I have seen very few people go thru foster care/orphanage/group home without coming out more screwed up than any 3 people deserve. Quite a few end up on the street, or petty theives, and most do not finish high school.

28:

This thread is to prove that random can handle a serious topic.

Revhttp://www.aulman.com/rev.gif

[grimdeath]

i think abortion of children under 3 months is acceptable, because the child will not suffer id rather have this happen than have a child that actually knows and feels hes beign mistreated and go trhough all fo the horrible things people can do to them but i dont support abortion that is in a stage where the child is already formed so you see it all depends phil but i just think a child in will suffer less through an abortion, may god forgive me but thats what i think

[reverendflash]

I really don't know anyone who uses abortion as birth control. Abortions are not easy, do not always go as planned, and really do take a toll on the woman. I don't think any woman in her right mind (is that possible j/k) would opt to go through that experience unless absolutely necessary.

Every time I think of this issue, I think of Monty Python's Meaning of Life... "Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great."

grim: I agree that even 3 months may be too long to wait. I lean towards 4 weeks myself... but that is just my opinion.

Revhttp://www.aulman.com/rev.gif

[pinx]

honestly if you wait 3 months to have an abortion, you should just have the kid. i'd have an abortion right after i found out. YOU DON'T NEED 3 MONTHS TO FIND OUT YOU'RE PREGNANT.

[reverendflash]

I agree pinx...

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[grimdeath]

exactly thats what i mean anyhow if you have unprotected sex and make a booboo you can always use the ecp (emergency contingency pill) which if take correctly within 72 hours of intercourse it will not let you become pregnant hell you can always use birthcontrol pills, and yes i do agree with you pink if you were to abort do it *** soon as you find out dont wait for 3 months thats what i mean when i said less than 3 months

[pinx]

i actually know a woman who has aborted three times now. my mom was her caseworker and had to take her to the clinic every time. she tried to teach the woman about other methods of birth control, other than the pull out method that her and her husband were using (he wouldn't wear a condom). every time this woman got pregnant it was the husband's fault because he pulled out too late.

but i think 3 times is the limit in nebraska and my mom told her that she would not take her to the clinic anymore. i wouldn't want to have my mom's job.

[pinx]

actually i was on the pill for like 2 years and gained 10 pounds and i was such a ***** a lot of the time. but now i switched to the patch and it is wonderful. but i definately couldn't do it without any protection. i would be freaking out and doing all the pregnancy test,etc.

[grimdeath]

okay phill what happens in china is wrong and so is aborting a child which is already formed in the womb of the mother liek i said i only support it if the person is in the stages where the baby is not formed im not saying its right but id rather have that happen than to have a person dismember or do whatever other barbaric act on a defenseless child

[lava]

Abortion is just wrong. It's an easy way out - a way for women to shy away from responsibility. I'm really sorry that men can't have babies or share in the responsibility of carrying a child, but it's just the way nature works. This means that women have to be more responsible than men about their choices. It's totally unfair, but it's true. Women need to be more responsible with what they do with their bodies... and they need to face the responsibilities of their actions.

I'd keep abortion legal in one case though, if a woman is raped. That's the only way that I can see an abortion being moral.

I'd be incredibly pissed off if a woman i was with had an abortion. It sucks that she has to carry it, i wish I could help, but it's not her choice what to do with the child, because it's also my child. Was there an accident? Take the morning after pill... it's free, and that's entirely within her right to do. However, if a child is conceived she has no right to kill it.

I wish I knew what it's like to have to carry a child. I'm sure it's extremely tough, but it a consequence of the choices the woman made. They talk about choice... the choice comes when deciding to have sex.

[grimdeath]

phill abortion as birth control is wrong i do not support that that is stupid maybe aborting once i can live with but doing it as a hobby now that is sick and irresponsible my exwife wanted to abort our second child i said no you know why because if god doesnt want me to have a child he will not let me have it a child is a blessing from god, so maybe in the end im not really pro abortion but i think a person can do it once and if its under the 3 months status or something but to commit abortion as if you would take a pill is wrong, if you abort once you know why you aborted and you should know how to prevent becoming pregnant again and trust me their are a bunch of ways of protecting yourself against pregnancy so if you have aborted and keep practicing unsafe sex then youre just plain irresponsible

Ill give you a very good example that im going through right now as we speak my girl might be pregnant we searched for the ecp pill and didnt find it so what did i say i said the same i said to my ex wife why?? because me not finding the pill makes me believe that god wants me to have this child even though im not sure if shes actually pregnant so if shes not you see she will start taking pills but we will have some sort of protection goin on trust me one scare is enough

[reverendflash]

Once again, everyone here misses the point. It is not when is life, it is what happens to that life once it is put on this earth, and begins to breath oxygen.

Phil: I agree that China is barbaric in it's procedure. But what about a society that devalues females so much, that a couple will continue to have children keeping hope of having more male babies. Then, when the women are of age (10-12), they are sold into slavery/prostitution, etc. because they are considered a burden to the family by society.

One more time, what do we do with the children that are unwanted, that have to be born because it is illegal to abort (I feel if it is illegal for one, illegal for all. I don't think anyone should be able to decide which ones are legal and which ones are forced births).

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[coyotekel]

Originally posted by lavaboy
I wish I knew what it's like to have to carry a child. I'm sure it's extremely tough, but it a consequence of the choices the woman made. They talk about choice... the choice comes when deciding to have sex.

Totally off subject but as I've told my husband before. . . if men had to be the ones to birth the children humans would be an endangered species. :)

[reverendflash]

Phil:

your statement about this being someone else's point to prove is not necessarily factual. This is in your opinion. I disagree. In my opinon, life begins when the fetus can survive outside the womb. Just my opinion, and can't be proven that I know of.

What you speak of is a philosophical question similar to the meaning of life, and in my opinion will never be answered by science or anyone's god(s).

Revhttp://www.aulman.com/rev.gif

[reverendflash]

Hurry back Philbo...

Revhttp://www.aulman.com/rev.gif

[lava]

Phil:
well, here's the thing. I have no problem with killing life. I really dont. Right now I'm killing hundreds of cells (I'm scratching my butt). I just had lobster for lunch, and the cook killed it and it was delicious. My concience is clear - the lobster gave up its life for my nutrition. I have no problem with killing a cell, I really don't care. However, I have a problem with killing reasoning intelligence. or anything that has the potential to become intelligent.

Sex sacred? no way. it is my opinion that many of our values are tied up to our past need for community survival. Jews don't eat pigs because I'm sure someone people in the past got really sick from eating a pig. We value marriage because it takes a lot of energy to raise a child. We discourage sex outside of a contract because it decreases a community's survival rate.
However, things are different, and many of these values need to be re-thought. Before, there were huge consequences for single parent kids. Now, there's not that many. A broken marriage doesn't affect the community as much as it used to.

HOWEVER. I don't include abortion into one of these values that need to be rethought, since it DOES affect the community. In particular, it affects the person that's going to be born. I don't think anyone should be allowed to be killed just because they can't think or protest. I'd be incredibly pissed if I knew I was going to be aborted. But I'm more against it because it's a "get out of jail free" card for irresponsible people. People should be able to have sex whenever they want. But they should do it carefully, and be prepared to face the consequences.

[reverendflash]

Again...

The point of this thread is not whether you agree with abortion being legal...

This thread is about what are you going to do with all of the unwanted children when abortions are illegal?

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[coyotekel]

Originally posted by reverendflash
In my opinon, life begins when the fetus can survive outside the womb.Revhttp://www.aulman.com/rev.gif

I don't believe that is an opinion a man is capable of having. I've carried two wonderful little children in my womb and was emotionally attached to them the moment I felt them swimming around. (which is around 4-5 months). They react to loud noises by kicking you. :) If you push on your stomach they will often push back. They will move when they hear a familiar voice close by. This definitely felt like life to me. It's the most incredible feeling in the world. So I must say (considering that I've been there) I must disagree.

[lava]

Originally posted by reverendflash
Again...

The point of this thread is not whether you agree with abortion being legal...

This thread is about what are you going to do with all of the unwanted children when abortions are illegal?

Revhttp://www.aulman.com/rev.gif

it's not just about making abortions illegal, but about stopping unwanted births at the source - careless sexual contact. Did someone said that we're not allowed to encourage people to be more responsible?

[reverendflash]

As I said, it was my opinion. No one can tell me what my opinion is, or whether I can have one. You are entitled to your opinion. I also said that I thought all abortions over 4 weeks should be illegal if you had read the thread...

Again, this thread is about what to do with all of the unwanted, uncared for children we have now, let alone if we made abortions illegal.

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[grimdeath]

rev i really cant answer you question because i really have no idea what to do to a living thinking person, killing them is out of the picture, rehab doesnt work so honestly i really cant say

[pinx]

i have to say if i got pregnant now (i'm 20) i would abort after the first time i found out. but if it happened later (24, 25 or later) i would definately keep it. i'd just have to be mentally ready for a baby.

[reverendflash]

Originally posted by lavaboy
it's not just about making abortions illegal, but about stopping unwanted births at the source - careless sexual contact. Did someone said that we're not allowed to encourage people to be more responsible?

Excuse me?

This thread is about the abuse that goes on everyday in the foster care system. I have seen this soooo many times first hand.

That... is what this thread is about.

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[lava]

whoops...

Anyways, ok, lets talk about that... many children are left for adoption because the parents can't afford to raise them. Yes, I know that's not every parent's reason, but could it be at least 33 percent?

we should encourage parents to keep their children by increasing aid (kinda like when people go to college...) for new parents.

[coyotekel]

It's sad but what can we do other than, like someone said earlier (i can't remember who) live our own lives and not worry about it. What's the point in getting all stressed out about things you have absolutely no control over? There is evil in our world. It sucks but it's true.

[pinx]

evil=george w. bush spending all the money on war and cutting aid programs.

[lava]

well, there are several things I can do... I can avoid getting a girl pregnant, and I can avoid giving a baby up for adoption. Additionally, I can adopt a kid when I'm older - it's something I want to do.

[lava]

Plus Rev... why instead of fighting to keep abortion legal, why don't pro-choice groups encourage couples to be more responsible? Even if you dont give a crap about the baby, if you look at it from a complete selfish point of view abortion is still bad for the woman - it brings economic and psychological damage... Encouraging couples to be responsible would surely decrease the number of pregnancies...

[reverendflash]

how about we take all of the resources we spend on anti-abortion activities, and fetal rights for that matter, and spend it on educating our youth (studies have shown that education alone would drastically cut the teen mother count)?

How about we give a college education to orphaned kids? How about guaranteeing them college if they keep up a 2.5 GPA?

any others?

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[coyotekel]

Originally posted by lavaboy
well, there are several things I can do... I can avoid getting a girl pregnant, and I can avoid giving a baby up for adoption. Additionally, I can adopt a kid when I'm older - it's something I want to do.

Yes like I said there are things you can do but nothing you can do about what others are doing to children. It's out of your hands. I think adoption is wonderful.

[reverendflash]

Originally posted by coyotekel
Yes like I said there are things you can do but nothing you can do about what others are doing to children. It's out of your hands. I think adoption is wonderful.

I disagree. I think it is all of our responsibility to educate our youth. We are currently spending less money on education, and more money on building prisons to keep those kids locked up.

I agree abortion is bad. But I think the money wasted on anti-abortion activities could be used in so many better ways...

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[lava]

Originally posted by reverendflash

How about we give a college education to orphaned kids? How about guaranteeing them college if they keep up a 2.5 GPA?
http://www.aulman.com/rev.gif

define orphaned... if their parents have died, or if their parents gave them up for adoption? What's keeping me from giving my 15 year old kid up for adoption? (can that be done?)

[pinx]

Originally posted by reverendflash
how about we take all of the resources we spend on anti-abortion activities, and fetal rights for that matter, and spend it on educating our youth (studies have shown that education alone would drastically cut the teen mother count)?

How about we give a college education to orphaned kids? How about guaranteeing them college if they keep up a 2.5 GPA?

any others?

Revhttp://www.aulman.com/rev.gif

and not just educate them about how abstinence is the best possible way to go. but tell them about ALL other methods and diseases, etc.

some schools consider sex education bad because it will make people go and have sex. that's not true. if someone wants to have sex, they will. so the way to go is to teach safe practice.

[reverendflash]

orphaned is without parents by definition.

I'm not saying that is the way out, just an idea.

I'd like to hear people come up with solutions, rather than bitsching about making more laws which would be cruel to enforce.

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[lava]

Originally posted by coyotekel
Yes like I said there are things you can do but nothing you can do about what others are doing to children. It's out of your hands. I think adoption is wonderful.

It's not out of my hands. I can start a non profit organization tomorrow to print informational pamphlets to children. i can write an editorial in the washington post to point out the crisis in the chinese foster system.. There are things that I can do. Now ask me, do I care enough? not really. I can have a moral stance on an issue, but I only have a limited amount of time in this life to work for them. The issue I'm picking is education. Education is the answer to everything.

[coyotekel]

Originally posted by lavaboy
define orphaned... if their parents have died, or if their parents gave them up for adoption? What's keeping me from giving my 15 year old kid up for adoption? (can that be done?)


Great one. lol nicely said lavaboy.

[reverendflash]

Originally posted by pinx
and not just educate them about how abstinence is the best possible way to go. but tell them about ALL other methods and diseases, etc.

some schools consider sex education bad because it will make people go and have sex. that's not true. if someone wants to have sex, they will. so the way to go is to teach safe practice.

I agree...

I mean education in all things... keeping kids in school... sending them to college...

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[coyotekel]

It will never happen. Sounds great but we don't live in a utopia.

[reverendflash]

Originally posted by coyotekel
It will never happen. Sounds great but we don't live in a utopia.

I think that is an apathetic way out. In that frame of mind, we shouldn't worry about the fact that Enron went Bankrupt for Billions, because it will always happen, it has happened, and we can't do anything to stop it, so we should just ignore it, hope it stays the same or gets better on its own...

Revhttp://www.aulman.com/rev.gif

[pinx]

we don't live in total Sh*t either.

[lava]

Originally posted by coyotekel
It will never happen. Sounds great but we don't live in a utopia.
I hate it when people say this... I seriously do. I'm sorry, but what's wrong with being idealistic? I hope that 20 years from now I don't say that. There's a lot of things wrong, and we can do whatever we can to reach that ideal.

Rev, do social workers have mandatory meetings with adopted kids?

[coyotekel]

no I don't personally but some people do. And no one is ever going to be able to do anything about it.

[reverendflash]

raf:

yes they do, but quite often they are missed, made up, or are "on the take." There are people who live off of the money the agencies give them to care for the children, giving the children barely food to eat. The kids in this article are smiling for the camera while being taped to the crib. This means a 3 yr old kid thinks it is so normal to be taped to the crib that he has no problem smiling for the camera.

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[coyotekel]

It sickens me to think about it. I can't go through my life sickened by the evil that exists in people. I find it's easier to keep it out of my mind. I rarely watch the news or read newspapers. It's so horrible the way the world is and so overwhelming that I stay out of it. (Except to argue oops I mean discuss) in these forums. :sure:

[lava]

well, I want to know this. Does abuse happen more often in foster homes than in regular homes? I know that foster homes are supposed to be perfect, and beneficial to the child, but are there estimates on levels of abuse in the two different cases? I know that I hear a lot about abuse in foster homes, but I don't usually hear about the thousands of other foster homes that don't have any problems. Is it possible that abuse in foster homes is overemphasized?

I know it came out kind of sarcastic, but I'm not being sarcastic, it's an actual question.

Plus, is there a standard for abuse? I got spanked as a child - with a belt, and I know there are some people out there who denounce foster care abuse that also denounce spanking..

[lava]

Originally posted by coyotekel
It sickens me to think about it. I can't go through my life sickened by the evil that exists in people. I find it's easier to keep it out of my mind. I rarely watch the news or read newspapers. It's so horrible the way the world is and so overwhelming that I stay out of it. (Except to argue oops I mean discuss) in these forums. :sure:
not watching the news is a bad thing...

[coyotekel]

How so?

[reverendflash]

I only speak of first hand knowledge. I can only think of a couple of people I have known that went through Foster Care without being molested, beated (badly), burned, etc. Most females have been sexually molested by either family or thier friends.

Any one of these people would rather have spent that time on the streets begging for food than be put through that kind of abuse again...

Revhttp://www.aulman.com/rev.gif

[lava]

Originally posted by coyotekel
How so?

well, for example - the education budget was cut big time to fund Bush's voucher program... this is going to affect your kid.

[pinx]

i think spanking is necessary but not with belts, just hands. and only when it is absolutely necessary, like when the kid mouths off. that is one thing i absolutely HATE. my cousins constantly mouth off at my aunt, call her a *****, whore, etc. if i said that to my mother, she would kill me, or beat me to the point of no recognition, or never ever talk to me again. one of those. i've told my cousins that if i hear them calling anyone that, especially their mother, that i would personally smack them.

[lava]

I think this will be helpful in this discussion
http://www.calib.com/nccanch/stats/index.cfm

[reverendflash]

Originally posted by pinx
i think spanking is necessary but not with belts, just hands. and only when it is absolutely necessary, like when the kid mouths off. that is one thing i absolutely HATE. my cousins constantly mouth off at my aunt, call her a *****, whore, etc. if i said that to my mother, she would kill me, or beat me to the point of no recognition, or never ever talk to me again. one of those. i've told my cousins that if i hear them calling anyone that, especially their mother, that i would personally smack them.

nice thoughts pinx, wrong thread.

Back to topic:

If education is partially the answer, then how do we stop increasing class sizes, and from laying off teachers?

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[coyotekel]

How is this going to affect my kid? I'm not being sarcastic but I really don't see how that's going to change anything. He goes to a private school. I don't think the education budget applies.

[reverendflash]

raf:

I have read that site, and do think it is extremely one sided, with a definite goal in mind.

There is far more abuse being done each day that isn't being reported, because the kids think that it is normal to be burned with a frying pan for being "bad."

Revhttp://www.aulman.com/rev.gif

[lava]

well, for once, don't re elect bush... I personally don't care about the war, but I'm incredibly pissed off that he cut the education budget...
I need to look around the OMB site to see how much we're spending on education..

[reverendflash]

Originally posted by coyotekel
How is this going to affect my kid? I'm not being sarcastic but I really don't see how that's going to change anything. He goes to a private school. I don't think the education budget applies.

because your kid may get robbed by some other kid who didn't get the education he needed to get out of that circle of poverty?

Because your kid can't hire anyone because they don't have the literary skills needed to do the job?

Because we are all in this world together, and by sticking your head in the sand you are becoming part of the problem, instead of part of the cure?

Revhttp://www.aulman.com/rev.gif

[lava]

Originally posted by reverendflash
raf:

I have read that site, and do think it is extremely one sided, with a definite goal in mind.

There is far more abuse being done each day that isn't being reported, because the kids think that it is normal to be burned with a frying pan for being "bad."

Revhttp://www.aulman.com/rev.gif

well, is there a reliable source then?

[reverendflash]

raf:

If they aren't reported, they are very hard to back up.

As I said, I speak only from experience, not from stats. I know literally hundreds of people who have gone through the system. Of them, all were abused/beaten/molested/ignored down to the last one. I know there are good Foster Care Families out there, quite a few I hope, but I have only seen the results.

Revhttp://www.aulman.com/rev.gif

[grimdeath]

rev you got a good point about educating, remember when aids was always on the media??? well how often these days do you hear about aids on the news, basically non existant why because they educated the generation and informed them how to prevent getting aids so really education is teh way to go i agree rev

[reverendflash]

great Grim!

that's one.... a couple million more to go....
:beam:

Revhttp://www.aulman.com/rev.gif

[grimdeath]

well with education and the media (tv) is like the easiest way to reach millions of people because mostly everyone attends to school and watch tv so its really an awareness campaign that has to be done just like mtv did with the aids thing back in the 80s