HELP with legal website issues !!!!

[lowprofile]

Site was done with no mention of legal stuff. Now they saying they want a letter they own the copyright and the source code.

I only included two little flash bits, and didn't even charge them for those but intended to always keep the copyright on that type source code.

What is common for website designers to do ?? Help, this is my first real 'paid' site.

e.g. i notice most companies have copyright 'the company' at the bottom of the page. Does that mean this is common to sign over the copy right to them??
-or just the layout style

Help!

[mariofan]

dont give them a letter. I dont think anybody can have copyright on code...

:m:

[lowprofile]

Does anyone have experience with this please...


I have been told by one flash programmer, that he charges ALOT more when giving out the source.
How much more thought??

Also, still looking to answeres to first questions...

[chris9902]

i heard that if you have original content and have something liek (C) me 2003-04 then people can not touch it

it is a real legal thing

[lostinbeta]

You usually have to pay for a copywrite and get it legally noterized or something like that.

I am sorry to say I don't have experience with this myself, but I do know that some companies do ask for source code copywriting. This prevents you from being able to do anything exactly the same on another site that you work on I believe.

[mariofan]

yeah you have to pay for copyright,you cant just slap a (c) on anything. As always, lost is correct...

mariofan!

[lowprofile]

Guys I don't mean to be rude, however, if you don't know quite what you are talking about of have experience could you not post.

A person has copyright just by creating it. You do not need to pay for copyright.

I'm not asking about these things, I am trying to find out how web developers handle this.
I already know that I own all copyrights.
I am trying to find out to what extents I should sign them away, and how much $ people charge to this extra when they sign away source etc.

[Soul]

I copywrite things by stroking them, then its feelings grow for me and won't let anyone else copy it. I'm a bloody genious! :beam:

- Soul :s:

[Mik3]

I copyright everything with my fake copyright tag. Nobody copies it that way... infact I dont even know what your supposed to do to copyright something

[reverendflash]

I need to know a couple of things...

1. where did you do the work for them?
2. was it under their instruction/creative direction?
3. did they pay you in any way, or provide any portion of the project?
4. are you an employee of that company?

then I can answer your question more accurately...

Revhttp://www.aulman.com/rev.gif

[UNFLUX]

Copyright is held by the original creator, and no one else, upon
completion of a work, project, art, design, etc., so deemed by
the creator himself.

However...

The courts do not hold this up very often in court. There's a ton
of cases going on right now where people are ripping other sites,
getting sued and winning because there isn't such a thing yet in
the internet world. At least not concrete...

Basically in terms of the internet, it's subjective...does it look
similar? same graphics? etc.

This is going to end up the same way music is copyrighted:
first-come first-serve basis to submitting your completed works to
the Library of Congress. Whenever that is, I'm not sure, but
there's supposed to be new entity created in our government to
help prevent this sort of thing.

Here's a quote directly from my official Service Agreement:

9. Web Design Project Copyright
Copyright to the finished web design site produced by UNFLUX will be owned by Bryan Gettman and/or UNFLUX. The Client will be assigned rights to use the Web Design Project as a web site, once final payment under this agreement and any additional charges incurred have been paid. Rights to photos, graphics, source code, work-up files, and computer programs are specifically not transferred to the Client, and remain the property of their respective owners. UNFLUX and its subcontractors retain the right to display graphics and other Web design elements as examples of their work in their respective portfolios. All Web Design Projects will contain a copyright/legal statement with a link to UNFLUX's Design Services Web Site.
legality is a huge issue with me because i've been ripped so many
times, blatantly, and have always won my case based on covering
myself in the beginning.

Here's my take on your situation:
They can't legally ask you to produce anything to them if it's not in
writing that you were going to supply it. Since it seems you did
this on good-faith, you should just consider to yourself what is the
"right thing to do."

Professionally, I would suggest you call a lawyer and ask them
theor opinion. Most laywers will give you a free consultation, and
answer your questions.

In terms of the client, I would just explain to the client that you
do not usually relinquish code, or source from flash. Exceptions
can be made, but that's usually taken care of at the beginning of
the project. I don't think you should give it to them.

From a personal perspective, if you know this client and would like
to use them as a reference etc, then it's probably in your best
interested to let it go, and give it to them. Just be sure in the
future you cover yourself - IN WRITING.

Hope this helps you out. Good luck. :)

[reverendflash]

it also makes a huge difference in which state you live. In California, for instance, if you are paid for the project, they own the project, code and all. If they provide you with any portion of the project (art, supplies, use of computer), they own the code. If someone commissions you to create something, they own all the code as well.

Rev http://aulman.com/rev.gif

[UNFLUX]

rev - i understand your point, but if it's not in writing and you have
a decent lawyer, you'll win every time.

That's saying, of course, that you want to fight it like that. Most
cases, i probably wouldn't and just let them have it.

Not sure here, since I don't know the relationship of the client and
lowprofile.

[reverendflash]

just as an FYI:

I give the clients the code willingly. It solves so many problems, and makes me feel like I did the right thing. They paid me to create it, I can use it somewhere else, and the client has something to set his coffee cup on...

Then again, I host most of my clients as well, so that helps. I just gave the code away for the jeweler's site, because the client wanted to go a different direction. It would put her in an extremely difficult position, and I won't put a client thru that. Just bad "Business JuJu."

JMO

Revhttp://www.aulman.com/rev.gif

[UNFLUX]

Excellent points rev...which is why I said that as well in my
novel-like post up there. ;)

I too give it up, on cd, to every client.

I think I have to explain the passage from my contract...
It basically means, that the client, or anyone else, canNOT claim to
have created it. It holds them to ackowledgement and
recognition of my company and our services.

It's not meant to say that I own it, and you get to use it, as it's
currently interpreted. My laywer and I are working on a revised
version actually.

[reverendflash]

I have a similar clause in my contract, along with a NDA, just to cover my butt...

I have never been ripped on anything I really give a blast about, so I may not be jaded enough on this issue...

Revhttp://www.aulman.com/rev.gif

[UNFLUX]

well, this is why I have a letter drafted, basically a cease & dissist.

Works pretty well, considering it's more of a threat than a real
inquiry. Most people don't want any trouble, and that includes
myself. :)

jaded? let's just say that it burns my ears just thinking about it. :bad:

[lowprofile]

Thanks guys for all the info.

The details go like this.

I was contracted by someone else to make a site for a company, he supposedly was doing a cheap site for them as a "throw-in" for getting buisness doing some other movie work.

I made a flash little intro, and a flash interface for part of the site that can be pulled out without the site being affected.

I told him ALL ALONG, I will put in a few flash things of my OWN, but will not charge him for them because they do not want to pay for that type of work, but I want to refer people to this site and done want it sucking as much as the example site that they suggested. It is just to make it look nice but it is mine.

Now the company has sent him a message saying
"Send a letter stating we own the copyright to all the files and the source code".

So the problem is the only thing with source code really is my flash bits (because the menu is public license java).
The html I''m not really worried about because as you say, how are you going to fight that anyways...

So I've told him, well to start with then you will have to:
1. Buy the flash from me then and that will just get you the "rights" as they are requesting.
2. For the source code they would have to pay even more money.

Another issue I have with this is, 1 of the flash pieces (the interface I can very easily use on another website - so I don't really want to sign over copyright, thus rendering me not allowed to use it). 2. A little .gif I use is mine already basically that I've used on other sites, I'm not going to go and take it away from them because someone else wants to "OWN" it now.

So yeah, I'm sort of stuck about the problem that
1. I don't want to loose my rights to use what I want from the site since I made it and no one ever clarified the copyright stuff they suddenly want.
2. What would I even charge for the source.
3. Finally, it appears that a third party that handles their network is jealous that we were given the website and is the one telling them to get all this stuff. So to me they wouldn't have asked this to begin with so it really just sounds like a play for this guy to get my flash source because apparently he does make websites too.
4. It was my understanding that people didn't really give out the souce anyways.

[dreamer]

The internet was not like it once was. Before, the internet was a place where we where free to do anything we wanted WITHOUT a price. Today we a forced to buy domains, internet services, and not to forget the annoying pop up ads. Companies are taking advanage of the internet by making every penny they can.

And this copyright law must be the most stupid law ever created. It just a way to make money. FOr i fear one day we wont be able to get onto the internet without getting through 100's of popups, fees and chargers and copyirght laws.

The internet is the only free world we have. it was our Virutal playground where ideas raged like fires. I guess that is no more.

[reverendflash]

you have to ask yourself:

Is it worth it to burn this bridge?

Prob not.

By them "owning" the .swf's then yes, since they asked your friend to do a website, and you did it for him, they own the swf's. As unflux said, you could prob beat this in court, but you will lose a lot in court costs, plus reputation.

They do not, however, own every .gif in that swf., just that swf as a whole. If you change it slightly, then it is your swf again...

But seriously, just give them the code. Chances are, even if someone does use your code, it won't hurt you in any way.

JMO

and dreamer:
what are you talking about, and what does it have to do with lowprofiles' question?

Revhttp://www.aulman.com/rev.gif

[lowprofile]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by reverendflash
[B]you have to ask yourself:

Is it worth it to burn this bridge?

Prob not.

By them "owning" the .swf's then yes, since they asked your friend to do a website, and you did it for him, they own the swf's. As unflux said, you could prob beat this in court, but you will lose a lot in court costs, plus reputation.



-------- They want the .fla not just the .swf

I don't see how you say they own it since I have not signed my copyright to anyone, and I made it clear to my friend that is was mine before anyone everstarted asking to "sign the copyright to them and give them the source".

I'm sore of thinking we can just diffuse it and give the site on a CD and say you have all there and are allowed to change it all you want and use it for your website, but not give the .fla

[lowprofile]

I also noticed a lot of you put this on the sites in your portfolios:

(c) the companys name of the website, date.


However, you just stated you still keep the copyright yourself in that SECTION 9 you listed. So how can you put this on the website yet you still have the copyright?



Apparently they even asked we don't put a link to other sites??
(I can only take it to mean no: "site designed by: x")
that sounds odd too! All this on recommendation by this third party - sorta make me still feel like he wants to be able to point to it as "his" and there be no proof on the page who the designer was.

[lowprofile]

p.s.

Your section 9 was taken from these guys:

http://free-domain.com/terms.htm

unless they took it from you...



p.s.s

and something smells like 2advanced ;-) webbasis background even...

[UNFLUX]

OMG! I'm so angry right now, I can barely type...

I don't appreciate the insinuation that I took anything from
anyone. I shouldn't have to defend myself, but I guess I have to.

What they have, is similar to what I have in a Service Agreement
for my clients. It's a standard template for a web design
contract, that I took to a lawyer for approval. Ovbiously they are
using the same template, and I know of several others that use it
as well.

Secondly, what the hell are you referring to with the 2a and bg
comments? I would seriously consider taking them back, given
you don't know me or my business. Webbasis is nothing like
anything on my site, and I have no clue why you would accuse me
of stealing someone else's ideas. I REALLY don't appreciate that
remark one bit. :bad:

2a is an influence, I'll admit that to anyone. But what brings you
to this public forum and accuse me of being a ripper? You need to
get your facts straight sir.

Next time you come here for help, you might want to reconsider
your approach at slandering others, especially the ones that tried
to help you out. I'm fairly knowledgeable and experienced, and
was giving you some sound advice...then you trash me.

Nice. :sigh:

[lostinbeta]

Free-Domain.com

The client unconditionally guarantees that any elements of text, graphics, photos, designs, trademarks, or other artwork furnished to RWG Internet Service for inclusion in the web design project are owned by the client, or that the client has permission from the rightful owner to use each of these elements, and will hold harmless, protect and defend RWG Internet Service and its subcontractors from any claim or suit arising from the use of such elements furnished by the client.

UNFLUX

Copyright to the finished web design site produced by UNFLUX will be owned by Bryan Gettman and/or UNFLUX. The Client will be assigned rights to use the Web Design Project as a web site, once final payment under this agreement and any additional charges incurred have been paid. Rights to photos, graphics, source code, work-up files, and computer programs are specifically not transferred to the Client, and remain the property of their respective owners. UNFLUX and its subcontractors retain the right to display graphics and other Web design elements as examples of their work in their respective portfolios. All Web Design Projects will contain a copyright/legal statement with a link to UNFLUX's Design Services Web Site.



They sound quite different to me. I mean, how different can a copywrite notice for a web design company be? They all have to copywrite the same things, and there is only so many ways you can write that.


And...

www.2advanced.com

www.unflux.com


They both look completely different to me. You really should try to be nicer to the people who are offering you professional advice and help during your dilemna.

[reverendflash]

lowprofile:

if it bothers you that much, take your toys and go home.

Tell them No! burn that bridge and move on.

Otherwise, capitulate, and take your lumps. We have given our advice.

Revhttp://www.aulman.com/rev.gif

[lowprofile]

Boy, guys your are TOO sensitive. The legal things look very similar what is wrong with letting the guy know that these guys have the same thing posted as he did post.

And who cares!? I just came accross it - and noticed. Note! I said he copied it OR they copied it!? so why get so UPSET?!

boy you guys...

I mean they were both #9 even! Why get so upset that I pointed that out!?!? unless you have some other reason...

ANd UnFLUX please - WHO CARES, anyone is allowed an opinion. When I saw your site these things total stuck out to me, never said it was a copy of their site, you could see the influence just sticking right out, just like you said they influenced you. WHY spazz out just becuase someone can see your influences!


lostinbeta You had the wrong ones:

SITE I LISTED:
9. Web Design Project Copyright.

RWG Internet Service owns copyright to the finished web design site produced by RWG Internet Service. The client will be assigned rights to use the web design project as a web site, once final payment under this agreement and any additional charges incurred have been paid. Rights to photos, graphics, source code, work-up files and computer programs are specifically not transferred to the client, and remain the property of their respective owners. RWG Internet Service and its subcontractors retain the right to display graphics and other web design elements as examples of their work in their respective portfolios. All web design projects will contain a copyright/legal page with a link to RWGInternet & Marketing web site.


UNLUX GUYS:

9. Web Design Project Copyright
Copyright to the finished web design site produced by UNFLUX will be owned by Bryan Gettman and/or UNFLUX. The Client will be assigned rights to use the Web Design Project as a web site, once final payment under this agreement and any additional charges incurred have been paid. Rights to photos, graphics, source code, work-up files, and computer programs are specifically not transferred to the Client, and remain the property of their respective owners. UNFLUX and its subcontractors retain the right to display graphics and other Web design elements as examples of their work in their respective portfolios. All Web Design Projects will contain a copyright/legal statement with a link to UNFLUX's Design Services Web Site.

[UNFLUX]

It's a dream of mine to be mentioned in the same breath as 2a,
believe me. But not ever in the context that I took anything from
them other than inspiration.

I don't appreciate that, because I'm a professional, who takes his
work and his business very seriously. You ask me, why should I
get upset?

THAT's why I'm upset. :bad:

Too sensitive? Obviously more than one person reading your
posts agree that it was inappropriately worded, whatever it was
that you meant by it.

You ask who cares? I do. It's my work, and my site. I realize
that not everyone likes my site, but to blatantly claim it as a rip in
any sense is uncalled for.

THAT's why I'm upset. :bad:

It's already been said, I used the same template they did. It's a
universal and widely used template, so it's probably not
uncommon to visit tons of sites and see the same thing. Nobody
took anything from anyone, it's a template.

This is probably the part of it all that bothers me the most, is that
anything I'm associated with, even my text, documents, etc are
rips in any fashion.

THAT's why I'm upset. :bad:

As Rev said: It's time for me to move on. I wish you good luck
with your future endeavors.

I'm done on this thread, and I hope you got what you needed out
of it. All I got, was accused and angry.

[lowprofile]

You make no sense:

I only see a second person posting who made a WRONG quote!

You are upset becuase I pointed out you have the same documents 'practically' as some other guys.

It is the truth - you just admitted it - so whoooppy !!!!!

Your site resembles many 2a 'wing dings', whoooppy!!! Who cares!?

Just like you might say some new band sounds like another famous band, that is your opinion - and people can draw their own conclusions.

If you are going to make such a fuss over this and blow it out of proportion then - yes - lets make some crazy statements: as soon as I was watching your site 2a popped into my head.... OH WELL - cry me a river now...
even your 'little windows on the examples section slide the same ways 2a's do at the moment... oh no...

It is an OPINION JUST LIKE ALL BOY BANDS SOUND THE SAME !!! OH, NO !!!!!

If you paint in using some persons style, don't be all upset that someone can see that.

You already admitted they influenced you-

it is obvious.

[reverendflash]

I think the point unflux was making, was that you came here for help, and ended up criticizing unflux's site, and methods.

And then you wonder why he is upset?

for someone with only 20 posts to his name, and no homepage, you seem to have a lot of opinions on unflux's site...

if you critique, expect to get rebuttals. If you word that critique badly, expect more.

Revhttp://www.aulman.com/rev.gif

[AnOraK]

this is a post i saw a while ago...

copyright info and advice (http://www.flashmagazine.com/html/506.htm)

this is just advice...not legally binding or anything...

another example can be found here

more advice (http://www.flashkit.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=345274)

from experience it is always better to agree and sign off any project you undertake with a client...

have a decent set of terms and conditions drawn up by a solicitor or do a search 4 1 on the web....

its called a CMA document....cover my ***

we maintain a policy that the client will own copyright of any logo we create for them after final payment, but we retain full copyright of all working files...

as the first example URL says, a photographer would never hand over a negative bcoz you are then giving someone the ability to recreate your work; your client is paying for a finished article....NOT a templ8 they can sell on...

hope this is of some use....

::::: AnOraK :::::

[mooler]

This is a fact.

If you or anybody creates a text or a image or something that is original then the copyright to this is yours.

You can stick a C or a shewinggum to it. The thing is you have to verify that you are the original creator where the buisness of registering your "art" comes in.

But as long as you have the means to back this up (the original creator part) you are untouchable.

This from a writer who struggled with the same problem and his friend who is a lawer.

[mooler]

But...
This is the case here in nothern europe...and american law has a way of "renewing it self" so if thats where your at...good luck you´ll need it.