Clique or not clique?

[akurth]

Am I the only one, or do others see this as well?

The online design world has become cliquey, as if they were in High School. There are several groups and they all stick together and pat each other on the backs (like on the football team).

I have seen other people being run down on other Forums, just because they were not part of the group or didn't design the way they did. There was even one design, which was completely torn apart on "Ultrashock" (they can go fly a kit), and later on this really cool 3D Web site was published in a magazine...the person was not part of the group (but I am sure he or her is smiling now), therefore threat and everybody was jealous...I am sick of it.

I am tired of such closed group, close-minded sites as k10k (sim city style), and their self-perpetuating clique additude, as well as design is kinky, or the infront (australian centricity).

When I started on the Web, way way back...I thought there was finally a place where people can publish and share all around the world...but yet it has become less open and more narrow minded then most mags I read. Now why is that? Perhaps the age groups...or what I believe, the passive aggressives, who I call the forum and email Nazis.

Why can't people embrace and accept everybody's particular style or the lack there of...its open source, freedom of speech...so just let it out.

[lostinbeta]

Well I don't travel much on design forums, well I don't travel much on any other forum but this one, but what your saying is not surprising :-\

Many people can't accept that some peoples idea of art is different then others. Usually the people that stick together like that are trendwhores and think they totally rock and everyone else sucks.

This is not the way people should think though. Being open minded is a main part of art. Art is an expression not a look.

[akurth]

I like that word, "trendwhores," gotta remember that one. :beam:

[lostinbeta]

Its one of my favorite words :)

[Marz]

Well.. Let's just put it this way...

People wanna be :cool: so they join groups that think they are :cool:. When in turn they are very :geek: and :flower:. we here at Kirupa are indeed actually :cool: though because we help everybody out and commend everyone for their work...

Call us inovators or just plain nice guys ;) but I see it as.. A big happy family.. And that's the way itshould be my friend.. An ever expanding big happy family :)

[Makaveli]

:-\ well I am a one man clique and i am the end all and be all of everything. I am very :cool: lol j/k

hey playa, excellent use of smilies, i see salvation in you yet =)

[upuaut]

Question: Do you know what the difference is between a "designer" and a "stylist". Do you know that 90% of the so called designers are actually stylists instead? I'm not saying that I like Cliques, but there are a TON of piss poor web people out there CLAIMing to be designers when in fact they have no understanding of what it takes to do the job.

The quote I read recently sums it up.

'when the distinction between style and design is lost, "we get meanlingless eye candy that gives beuty a bad name".'
Jeffrey Zeldman.

I'd be willing to bet that the critiques made of peoples design skills are often accurate and well needed in this world of the common man 'designer'. I see it every day here, and elsewhere, people ignoring the most basic of design principals. Is it cliquish to honestly relate that the site sucks if it does ignore these principals?

[akurth]

They should have a smiley limit!!! :trout:


:hangover: :skull:

[lostinbeta]

They do... 10 smileys per post I believe. But signatures don't count in that.

[upuaut]

oh... and for the record. One of my first serious sites I worked on, we designed a fantastic looking navigation system. It seemed really easy to navigate to us, the designers. But, after receiving massive feed back, relating that no one had a clue how to get around our site, we were forced to go with a more standard design.

Was I the victem of cliquishness, or did I just do a crappy job?

[akurth]

Well I got three answeres for you.

1. I have participated in forums where people on site check said..."I cannot figure out how to use it....blablabla" and then I went there, and looked at it, and it was not difficult to find...some people just don't get it...if you want it to be mysterirous and yoru accomplished yoru goal, thats fine (we are not talking sites for commercial purpose here.

2. Attention span, most kids on the forums have the attention span of a fly...so I am not surprised.

3. Are you trying to get into symantics with me now...or sentance analasys...I think you know what I am referring to...we are not talking about details, i ma talking ingeneral, how other people are being run down and ousted...DAAAAAAAVID:moustache

[Makaveli]

maybe you had dumb users? oh wait......the user is always right... :) musta been you =)

i thought you only lurked during night when at work.....what do you do at work anyways if your always on here!! i wish i had jobs like you people who sem to be able to lurk the forums all day.....spieing.....and lurking.....and lurking......and spying.....but i am afraid of the Kirupian Secret Council, they have many defence systems installed in case lurkers try to take over!

http://216.40.249.192/mysmilies/contrib/edoom/ALD.gif

[akurth]

Well some of you seem to be smiley experts here.

Is there a smiley clique?

[Makaveli]

uh oh, ak has figured it out!!! can i call you AK? sounds cooler and easier than your FULL LONG LONG 6 letter NAME

dam right, we stand on top of roofs and let our dimes and quarters fall hurting oblivious innocents!!!

http://138.121.52.29/contrib/edoom/heads_or_tails.gif

DIE INNOCENTS DIE!

and we lay mines for suckers to come and blow up on

http://www.myvidtodvd.com/mysmilies/contrib/geno/c4.gif

we smiley cliques RULE!!! .....although i don't make smilies....i just use them....then when they are worn out i throw them out! (like condoms for those of you need need graphical and visual interpretation!!!! ;) ;) )

[upuaut]

3. Are you trying to get into symantics with me now...or sentance analasys...I think you know what I am referring to...we are not talking about details, i ma talking ingeneral, how other people are being run down and ousted...DAAAAAAAVID

no.. just trying to make people think. If you say your a designer, but you're actually a stylist, and you get picked on for your claim, then you need more education, not less cliquishness.

Tell me.. are the people who are in the cliques educated in design, or are they just offering their personal opinions in the area? If it's the latter, then you can ignore them happily, or prove to them through source material that they are wrong. If it's the former then they are probebly right.

All I'm really saying is that I don't find this to be true, what you are saying.. what I do find to be true is that 90% of this business is full of people who have NO business doing design work.

[akurth]

90% of this business is full of people who have NO business doing design work

I say AMEN to that.



prove to them through source material that they are wrong

Well my friend that is hard to do, because design is not like coding, often there are many solutions to things, and then when it is artistic license...how do you judge that or disprove that...sorry mister Van Gogh you were wrong...see the dilemma David...

[upuaut]

well that's my point about style. If you're talking about what is asteticaly pleasing, then it's a style issue, and you're 100% right.. it's a matter of opinion and one should not be excluded, or ridiculed for works of style. (unless it's just REALLY bad.. and you know what I mean.. there are some things that look bad.. like mixing blue pastel with brown base tones. It just don't work. :) )

[akurth]

Gotcha ;)

We see :eye: to :eye: on this.

Sorry couldn't resist using those icons...never found any use for them until now.

[Aislin]

The user/consumer is always right. Plain and simple.

One of the most simple things was changed once, a long time ago, and had to be changed back because the consumer didn't understand.
Flip-top toothpaste didn't stick around very long when it first came out. If you can believe it.

You know those BBQ starters? They're better than matches, they last longer, they have more reach, they stay lit for longer. They're infinitely better. So why are matches still around? Ritual.

You could make the cork on a champagne bottle better, but would you want to?



The point is, a designer/stylist can't have his way all the time. An ingenious idea to a handful of people may be the opposite for others.
You have to adapt or you're going to flow away in a river of failures. People who go against the current drown.

[Marz]

Yeah but what isn't trendy or a clique anymore though really?

When talking about a designer and a stylist.. You can really say one thing.. A designer is all about doing what is functional and popular to more people and the stylist is all about bring beauty even if it isn't popular.

Which is better? Ohh I dunno.. I'm what is known as an artist.. I can't put together things that look right with fucntionability but I can draw very well with all of that.. Probably why I started coding..

With coding.. You have a couple of areas.. You can be designated as a game coder, database coder, special effects coder or a os coder... The differences are all in what you wanna program and how good you are at recognizing things.. I hate making things like scrolling text fields and flashy text thigns but I can sit here and tell you how to make a Doom style game off the top of my head...

I say.. Go with what you are good with.. If you are a stylist but can't seem to get that designer edge.. Than so be it.. But I don't think designer should be one step ahead of stylist.. For there is a need for everything that is done :)

[akurth]

Alright...don't mind me, but to me a stylist is someone who does hair. And what you guys call designer seems to be a Web designer, which is not really a designer in terms of graphic design. I was referring to graphic art/design.

I know you guys are all Web folks, and I respect that, but I couldn't take it anymore HAHHAHHA...every time I read stylist I was thinking of the girl that does my hair, or the people who work in Hollywood who do makeovers.

So let me be a smartass and post some terms:

What you guys call Web designer I call Web developer.

But here we go...some more terms...

1. All Web design and print design can basically can go under the general term Communication Design

2. Most Web Design has nothing to do with Graphic Design, and rather is Information Design, which has to do as the name says designing information, communicating information...road signs, the maps in malls the listing in airports etc etc, and Web sites are most often that, except they include one other factor, which is the Interaction Design, who they get to the information.

I was talking about graphic design styles on the Web....so basically about the creative aspect...about creative freedom and expression...you guys should not mix those things, because I am not talking about commercial work, I am talking about artistic expression.

akurth

[upuaut]

Well you can choose to make up your own definitions to terms, but I'm going by the definitions given to me, by both books writen on the subject, and my fiance who is well educated in the field. So in the end, if you're going to ask why people are being cliquish, it's probebly a good idea to know that you and they are on different pages with regard to what words mean. :)

[Kitiara]

I think it helps if a designer has a good knowledge of the programming work involved behind sites.

I've met a couple of these designers who came up with beautiful designs for a website, that simply couldn't be physically coded. They got all arsey when it was pointed out that it just wasn't possible, plus even if it were, no-one would be able to find their way around it anyway. :sigh:

And I'm not going to tackle the difference between designers and stylists. :) I think they all take a piece of the other anyway...

[upuaut]

I'm with you there Kit. Often the jobs do intermingle, especially in smaller firms where they simply can't afford a lead designer or an art director.

The problem between programmers and designers will never be solved. Artists dream big, that's why they are artists. Programmers are pragmatic, and understand the limits that they must impose upon the rest of the group.

[Kitiara]

It's trying to be both that's the difficult bit. :)

Although if you can walk that line, then I think you've got it made...

[akurth]

David I am not going into this one. Obviously your information is Web centric. But if you work in the traditional world then those above mentions terms are the terms that are used. I worked in advertising agencies as Art Director, so I think I know a little bit what I am talking about. But hey don't take my word for it.

Anyways this seems to be heading towards pointlessville...you think whatever makes you happy, but I don't just MAKE UP words...thank you very much.

[Marz]

Interesting thoughts... But...

I think by now anything that those guys wanted.. Could probably be done.. I'm one of those creative programmers.. I'll sit and work on those hard to get programs and try and get the artists's design in there as much as possible.. The only thing stopping me is bandwith.. hehe.. Gotta keep it low or people will be loading too much.

But I mainly agree with what kit has said.. And Web Developer? YEah... Web Artist, Web Developer, Web programmer, Web Designer, Web Stylist, and etc.. etc... There are way too many words to describe it all.. So I typically go for the. Computer Programmer. :)

[akurth]

Thanks Phil...I know what you mean thats why I used to hate forums...but its really not nessecary for David to explain and reply. I was just a little ticked, but that's it. Lets just leave it at that. Don't worry, I don't dislike David, has nothing to do with that...but as you know, you can be mad at friends as well.

OK.