why are most sites about flash not composed in flash?

[Kay]

I've always wondered this. If flash is really as good as html or some other web designing application then why don't these sites use flash in creating thier own page?

www.kirupa.com www.flashkit.com www.actionsript.org

[Littlekill]

cause they are to good for that

[eyeinfinitude]

Well if you're going to have a site that gets updated frequently then it would be much more practical to have a HTML based site. Flash is used if you want to add a bit more flare and interactivity. www.kirupa.com has a bit of flash and so does www.ultrashock.com

A site that gets updated regularly would be a pain to update if it was built entirely out of flash.

[Digigamer]

hehe because it would be WAY to hard to make these sites in flash. Plus it wouldn't be convient. It would be a ***** to have to read all these tutorials off a flash site. Web designers choose what to use to make their sites depending on the content and the content of these sites would definately not fall in the "make in flash section"

[RenaissanceGirl]

Site containing a lot of information would be extremely hard to use if made in flash. It would be difficult to search for content and to link to specific parts of the site.

[Digitalosophy]

plus bandwidth

[Marz]

Speed...

try loading an entire kirupa forum inside of your flash interface before you could look anything up...

And since it's flash.. Everyone epxetcs point click point click and no load in the middle ;)

[pom]

All right, everything has been said already but here are my 2 cents anyway:

There are no forums developped in Flash like there are in HTML.
Displaying loads of texts has never been Flash's best suit.
After all, Flash is mainly a tool for designers, and that's not what those sits are about.

pom :)

[Laslett]

Flash delivers multimedia and is good for the wow sites and sites that have smooth transition not the 25.5 images remaining thing on the status bar.

Its kinda like the difference between a new paper ad and a tv ad.

if you tried to deliver a multimedia ad in a newpaper it may loose something!

[m_andrews808]

Originally posted by Ilyas da Pom
There are no forums developped in Flash like there are in HTML.

there has been a forum built in flash: http://www.phpforflash.com/board/index.php

as for sites like flashkit, kirupa and ultrashock there are several very good forums that are available to download for free so it'd be silly for someone to spend weeks building a complete forum in flash when they are readily available prebuilt.

I'm currently working on a Flash forum that doesn't need asp, php, sql (or any form of database) or even an http server to run!

[novatake]

I made my site typhoon extensions originally in html then got into flash so redesigned a new one in flash so then i had both. It got piss annoying updating 2 website each time as I frequently updated them. So I thought ill get rid of the HTML site. I have to say it was probably the the mistake of the sites life. Each time i added a extension or component I had to animate the download button like the rest and make the descriptions etc etc it took so long. Now Because it takes so long the site is no longer updated lol HTML rules for quick updating sites. flash is fo people to show off and keep people less bored

-Tom


p.s. how the hell are u making a flash forum without any server sided scripting

[eyezberg]

All crap.
If you use a database, design a good backend for easy addition/editing,
then have a Flash shell to display the info, it's just as easy to update as html, just need to design the site with the scalability and update options in the first place!
With PHP for example, you can design backend forms which allow the admin to at the same time upload a new image for a picture/product gallery, resize the img for thumbnail, resave it as jpg if it isn't to load into Flash, add a title and comment, all in one click, no need for image editing, swf update etc..
It's up to you to design the site AND backend in a way as to get done what you want... the mainpage of www.flash-db.com is all Flash for example...
so no more bull$hit please.
rude words, i apologize, but it's just too easy to say "flash can't do this and that" , "html is so much better for X or Y"...
not true most of the time.
As for displaying large amounts of text in Flash, readabilit etc, crap again, there's enough good pix fonts which are as readable as any TT font, you can give the user choices of font sizes, MX 2004 now supports a certain number of CSS styles etc...
Again, it's not Flash, it's the designer!
same as saying "my computer is stupid"...
bordel!
lol :)

[m_andrews808]

agreed, there's no good reason why a flash site can't be quick and simple to update with good planning. The second release of my first site, ConnectGames, was very dynamic in its functionality as well as content. Perhaps then its because the html/db path is a better known one that people tend to favour that?


p.s. how the hell are u making a flash forum without any server sided scripting

the forum requires a computer running an xml socket server to run. The 'serving' computer runs a forum server flash app that recieves page requests over the xml socket and sends out the required data. The forum itself is a standalone flash executable that connects to the socket server directly on the serving computer. When a new thread or reply is submitted, the forum server app recieves the data and saves it to the serving computer's hard drive using a shared object.

No database, no back-end, no http server. And its very quick *polishes nails* :P (-:

there may be problems with scalability and large amounts of data but I won't know until I've been able to test it fully

[Jubba]

Yes, agreed with Eyez. If everything is planned out correctly then there is no reason that Flash can't be used to do something as large as Kirupa (or as disorganized as Flashkit). It does require a lot of work to get the primary shell up, however...

[pom]

Hey, no need to swear, Joe :bad: Rontudju!!
I guess that the problem's just in our heads then. For so long, Flash has been used because you could do cool tweens (up to v.4 at least). F5 introduced some of us (not me :beam: ) to the world of flash combined with PHP, but it's really now with Flash MX that it's actually possible for a regular human being to build an application such as a Flash forum.

And FMX is only 1 1/2 years old. So I'm sure that all we need is some time to get used to the idea... :)

[eyezberg]

I'm waiting for Kerman's new book on RIA's in MX 2004 to arrive...
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0735713669/103-0182327-9371807
Hope it's good stuff..

PS: je rigoooole ;) (pour le b$..)

[Marz]

I'll say that Flash can do this stuff.. Because I've done it before..

But it's still unpractical.. Not only do you have to know a decent amount of AS... But you also have to know ALOT about PHP and Databasing... Someone like me or you Eyez.. No sweat.. I've done it before, no biggie...

But your avergae joe flasher or joe phper most likely doesn't know how to create an entire portal system or an entire shell in Flash to handle all of the information.

Until it gets to the point where Flash does not need PHP to communicate directly to a databse system (and not XML) quickly and effectively.. You are still better off just doing it in HTML. :)

As for the XML Sockets.. That's even more unpractical than Flash to PHP with Databasing... Because now you are getting into XML Socket Server handling.. That's creating a constantly running XML Socket exe file on your server (C++ or Visual Basic knowledge (maybe Java too now)), then you need to know how to do XML Socket Transfers on Flash and you gotta know how to process all that information as well.. That narrows down the average joe flasher alot..

So.. Yes.. Flash can defiently handle all of the ****.. But it's still entirely too unpractical for the average person to handle.. Programming and all of that, I and some of you can handle, but it's not for everyone.. :)

Can ya agree on that? hehe.. :)

[BadMagick]

And it's like if you picked up a dictionary and saw in the definition of a word that same word you're looking up.

Well that's how I see it at least...

[m_andrews808]

Originally posted by buddhamarz
But you also have to know ALOT about PHP and Databasing...

Forgive me for sounding ignorant, but being a bit of an oddball in knowing very little about html I have a question...

surely the html equivilent of whatever php/asp and database powered flash site would still require exactly the same php/asp and database backend to power it? The html/flash just being the graphical front end to the raw data being generated by the backend??


As for the XML Sockets..

whoa there cowboy, don't get me wrong I'm not saying everyone should be doing things this way, far from it. I was just offering that as an example of a different way of achieving the same/similar results. More of a BTW than anything.

And yes xml sockets aren't the easiest of things to get into and your average flasher won't know enough about them/won't have access to the right kind of server. But then would the average flasher know enough to knock out an html site backeneded with php/asp and a db (going back to my first q)? (-:

[ToyFiger]

since the scrollbar doesn't support my mousewheel, scrolling text in flash sucks.
also, the "php for flash" board does feel nice, but the preloading sucks, too. i'm using a DSL line with 90 kb/s downstream and a forum should run quickly then, which the php for flash board doesn't.

[m_andrews808]

I've seen flash textfields that let you use the scrollwheel, I think you need i.e. 6 to get it to work, maybe a bit of code too...

[ToyFiger]

i'm using IE 6
6.00.2800.1106
...and i haven't seen any flash scrollbar that supports my mousewheel

[m_andrews808]

same version as me... I'm not saying they're all over the place, I'm just saying it is possible all be it not as accessible as yer html scrollability hence why you don't see it often.

If you're questioning the truth in what I say then I'll try and find an example :sigh:

overall I don't think anyone is arguing that Flash is perfect, if you want ultimate useability then html is better but if every site followed jakob neilsens word on useablility the web would be a pretty dull place. Thats what Flash does best, its middle ground between linear but useable sites and interactive, entertaining sites that are difficult to use.

Little things like scrollwheel compatability are the sort of things MM are trying to resolve. MX 2004 is overall a more professional product, its not just the developers that are growing with the tool, but the tool itself is growing up.

As it stands I think flash is capable of creating pretty much anything (I'd say anything but I'm sure someone'll come along to try and prove me wrong) html can do almost as well (maybe there'll be a couple of useability niggles) but then it'll still be useable enough for 99.99% of people, plus it'll be able to do it with a bit of flare and a higher level of interactivity (which if used right can greatly improve useablility) to make a more entertaining site

[novatake]

well im just **** at updating flash lol bit late replying btw

[m_andrews808]

Re: mouse wheel scrolling

FLash MX:
(complex method requires IE6)
http://www.j3r.com/?page=mouse_wheel

Flash MX 2004:
(see Sen's post 4th from the top)
http://www.flashkit.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=477601

[ToyFiger]

ok, you won...

[Marz]

Originally posted by m_andrews808
Forgive me for sounding ignorant, but being a bit of an oddball in knowing very little about html I have a question...

surely the html equivilent of whatever php/asp and database powered flash site would still require exactly the same php/asp and database backend to power it? The html/flash just being the graphical front end to the raw data being generated by the backend??


And being the reasonable type.. I'll explain the two different models for you, so that you understand the HTML side of the equation... (please don't take the images as being childish or me trying to overly show a point, I just hate typing words sometimes :p *lol*)

When doing an HTML page, this model would work perfectly..

http://www.mentalconcepts.com/files/htmlhandler.gif

It's so much easier to explain things with pictures :D But anyways... On a typical HTML page, you would only have two major steps... The actual database that the information is on (which could be mySQL or text files or whatever) and the page that grabs the information and displays it..

That single page then grabs the information, raw data, and then presents it in tables or lines or whatever way you want to do it in an HTML format. Now, as for the Flash environment.

http://www.mentalconcepts.com/files/flashhandler.gif

Now.. There are three major steps in a Flash Environement however. With the Flash set up you will have the backend databse, the php page that brings stuff out of the database and the actual Flash Front end that displays the data...

The php page in this instance has to grab a hold of the information from the database and then turn this information into a SQL (Structured Query Line). Then, this line can be thrown to Flash for it to display... Now, it's an added step and it's not that hard to do, but I'd rather just leave it to two steps instead..

Remember, I'm the stubborn perosn on these boards.. Don't take it malicious.. Just smack me around a couple times and I'm okay.



whoa there cowboy, don't get me wrong I'm not saying everyone should be doing things this way, far from it. I was just offering that as an example of a different way of achieving the same/similar results. More of a BTW than anything.

And yes xml sockets aren't the easiest of things to get into and your average flasher won't know enough about them/won't have access to the right kind of server. But then would the average flasher know enough to knock out an html site backeneded with php/asp and a db (going back to my first q)? (-:

Oh yeah.. if they can't do standard PHP handling and **** like that.. XML Sockets would look like a a million piece puzzle... If you ever actually look into it though, The Visual Basic form of getting a XML Socket Server really is easy. :)

[Jasninder]

it's to attract more and more ppl to flash, users who dont have flash pluggin installed or dont bother to... can view these sites(text only i think) broader scope, in india ppl generally dont prefer flash because of low connection speed too, can be many reasons..

[Kay]

you look like a human cartoon character:)

[m_andrews808]

... ... silence... its probably for the best phil :P


Originally posted by buddhamarz
But it's still unpractical.. Not only do you have to know a decent amount of AS... But you also have to know ALOT about PHP and Databasing...

okay so theres an extra step involved in the process with Flash which is a pain, but my point is that you still have to have exactly the same knowledge of php/db's to make the equivilent site in html.

There might be a little more code involved in displaying the information in Flash but you've got to expect that when dealing with a more graphically flexible environment.

So are we saying understanding actionscript is too big a task for a lot?

[ToyFiger]

Originally posted by Kay
you look like a human cartoon character:)
lol
it's because of the f-tween in front of my face ;)

[Johnny64]

Originally posted by m_andrews808
So are we saying understanding actionscript is too big a task for a lot?

yeah :P

i have been ASing for ages and i still learn new stuff ever day :D

[Marz]

Originally posted by m_andrews808
... ... silence... its probably for the best phil :P



okay so theres an extra step involved in the process with Flash which is a pain, but my point is that you still have to have exactly the same knowledge of php/db's to make the equivilent site in html.

There might be a little more code involved in displaying the information in Flash but you've got to expect that when dealing with a more graphically flexible environment.

So are we saying understanding actionscript is too big a task for a lot?

Don't gte me wrong.. I agree with what you say.. But it's the people around us that have to deal with trying to do it.. Not use.. I think beyond my own intelligence to try and find answers sometimes...

For alot of people, understanding a good bit of AS can be a heavy task.. There are three types of Flashers out there...

Designers : Who know enough AS to gte their product to look cool
Programmers : Who know nearly everything about AS but when it comes to designing.. Thye know enough to gte them by.
Designing Programmers : Who know both areas quite proficiently enough to do anything in either medians...

There aren't too many Designing Programmers.. But in each of the others fields there exists a numerous amount of people.. LEt's do a survey sometime and see the results..

I'm just as curious as you are :D

[ehman]

mediocre at both programming and designing, master of none. (it sucks to be me)

if you want a flash site which loads quickly and is content driven, then you it will have to be very plain, and that reduces the point of making it in flash